M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

[Durga]

You were not worried I was looking for a way to save Chaqa. Please.

Excuse me? You were clearly looking for a way to save Chaqa. You said you'd rather kill jasnah than Chaqa. You literally said you didn't want to vote Chaqa. You jumped to worcej at bozo's suggestion even though you'd been saying you thought bozo was scummy. You said something about Chaqa doesn't feel scummy, and then you said *to Chaqa* that momentum wasn't with jasnah and asked who he wanted instead. You noticed Eden saying I caught Chaqa slipping and asked where, but didn't follow up on it at all.

You so obviously wanted to save Chaqa. The fact that you aren't just admitting you wanted to save him because you thought he was town is really suspicious.

Town!kgray kills worcej over jasnah and you cannot convince me otherwise

I'm actually pretty offended, but whatever. This is lazy at best.

Where did he slip again? I feel like I read it and thought it was stupid so probably didn't respond.

I obviously said I would rather keep Chaqa over jasnah but I was not attempting to save him. Which is irrelevant anyway, because tone doesn't translate well, and what I meant when I said "you were not worried" is I mean I don't believe you cared about my stance on Chaqa until maybe after he claimed.

[snowy801]

You were not worried I was looking for a way to save Chaqa. Please.

Excuse me? You were clearly looking for a way to save Chaqa. You said you'd rather kill jasnah than Chaqa. You literally said you didn't want to vote Chaqa. You jumped to worcej at bozo's suggestion even though you'd been saying you thought bozo was scummy. You said something about Chaqa doesn't feel scummy, and then you said *to Chaqa* that momentum wasn't with jasnah and asked who he wanted instead. You noticed Eden saying I caught Chaqa slipping and asked where, but didn't follow up on it at all.

You so obviously wanted to save Chaqa. The fact that you aren't just admitting you wanted to save him because you thought he was town is really suspicious.

Town!kgray kills worcej over jasnah and you cannot convince me otherwise

I'm actually pretty offended, but whatever. This is lazy at best.

Where did he slip again? I feel like I read it and thought it was stupid so probably didn't respond.

I obviously said I would rather keep Chaqa over jasnah but I was not attempting to save him. Which is irrelevant anyway, because tone doesn't translate well, and what I meant when I said "you were not worried" is I mean I don't believe you cared about my stance on Chaqa until maybe after he claimed.

The alleged slip can be found here.

viewtopic.php?p=258766#p258766

Subsequent discussion revolves around Chaqa, kgray and Eden if you want to look further.

[Durga]

I can't prove it at all but I've been suspecting (and said as much to DemonRHK to tell the god thread) that damo was the Cop and I was his n0 scan. You'll recall that he repeatedly declared me obvtown, including quite early, and when Durga questioned it, he didn't have the most ironclad reasoning for it, but stuck to it.

Why would he not shade chaqa at all if that was the case. Heck, he even said he wanted to daykill someone on the worcej wagon next. That does not strike me as "someone just fake claimed my role, fuck"

The longer he waits to pull the trigger on counterclaiming, the more time he buys to gather information with his role. Especially given that there was a vocal contingent of players calling bullshit on Chaqa’s claim, it seems plausible to me that he would play it cool and try to get more info before making his move. You’ll notice that he carefully avoided giving any opinion on Chaqa.

He full up said Chaqa could be cop, town, or scum. Why would you say that if you're cop. All PR's are constantly afraid that somehow they've been found out and may be the NK. Damo would somehow put in his EoN post that Chaqa shouldn't be trusted, whether subtle or not. That does not exist. At all. That I've seen anyway.

I'm kinda shocked that you're still pushing this narrative when we've already looked through damo's posts and he doesn't negatively react at all to Chaqa's claim. Please point to me how he "carefully avoided giving any opinion" when it seems like he was just null on Chaqa and wanted to see how it played out... and a reasonable PR would at least be like "hm this claim was kinda weird"

I feel like you would push this narrative no matter how damo read Chaqa and find a way to make damo's words into whatever you wanted them to be. How very lawyer-y of you.

[Durga]

Well I guess I really am good at reading you, damo! Sorry you died

I agree with everything Eden has just said, and I think they RB'd damo so Chaqa could claim it.

##vote chaqa

Are you serious? You want to off Chaqa without a cc? Why? Damo didn't even shade Chaqa for claiming cop so damo obv wasn't cop??

I wasn’t agreeing that damo was the cop, I thought I saw something else. But yeah I really think chaqa is lying and I don’t think the real cop, if it wasn’t damo, should CC.

What did you think you saw? Why do you think Chaqa is lying if not for this damo narrative? And even if he is, my point still stands about this also being pre-mature. Although now it feels like you're opening the gates for an eventual fake scum cop to reveal themselves down the line. Agh. No flip sucks.

[ghug]

The Oracle's reveal power cannot be roleblocked, no.

The selection of the power can be.

If Damo were Oracle and was roleblocked (with me fake claiming), he would not reveal anything, at least based on how I interpret things.

That isn't what happened, so we can safely assume Damo is not Oracle.

Or, at least, I can.

The plain language of the role suggests strongly that it cannot be roleblocked at all:

“… At Night, you may ##REVEAL a DEAD player. If you die from any method, that player’s ROLE and ALIGNMENT will be publicly posted in the game thread, You may change your REVEAL target on future nights. Your ability cannot be roleblocked.”

We can be certain that damo is not the Oracle, and almost certain jasnah is not, so we have an Oracle, so in theory we could let you live until the Oracle pops off and reveals damo was the Cop, or until we’re at 9.

That is the only condition by which I would assent to your continued survival. I am not at all impressed by your alleged breadcrumb, which wouldn’t have taken that long to find and make up if you were mafia and decided to claim Cop. I am quite certain you’re mafia, but I recognize this is a pretty good test case for the Oracle’s ability, and so I am fine with voting someone else off on the basis that we will resolve your slot with the Oracle at some point anyway.

I think the Oracle needs to be used on someone whose alignment we didn't know.

[Durga]

I was with you, that's why I tried to shut down Durga questioning damo's obvtown.

You tried to shut it down? When? How? You thought damo was cop and had a scan on PE......? What? Why would you think damo was cop?

I understand PE's reasoning on why he thought damo was cop d1. I cannot see why you would think damo was the cop.

Why would information available to Eden not be to me? I'm not blind.

It has further occurred to me that damo was the one who publicly introduced the knowledge that cop starts with a scan to the thread, and is exactly the type of player to fake crumb cop as he did. In this world, Chaqa is truly cop and mafia are in fact relying us to "do their dirty work" for them as be says.

I'm not entirely convinced, but I'm listening to either side of the arguments. I think the leaders (chaqa/ghug v Eden/kgray) are being unnecessarily belligerent to each other, in a potentially detrimental manner.

When were you trying to shut me down re:questioning damo?

Damo was full on PR hunting at the beginning of the game. He said a lot of things about a lot of different roles IIRC. Where was damo's fake crumb? You think damo fake crumbed cop so mafia killed damo in hopes that we would then kill Chaqa? Does that make Eden the head of this idea?

[Doom427]

Regardless of if Damo is cop.or not, the kill had to be read as meaning the Mafia think it's cop, right? Unless they all agreeded to pick someone they think had a possible crumbed read. That theory leads to PE being Mafia (and honestly, that's a solid plan, not gonna lie. Good on you if that's what happened team scum)

Ok, I mangled that sentence.
Mafia probably though Damo666 was a cop, and wouldn't be saved by doctor. The alternative is they read through people to see who could be a VT, but with a possible fake crumb trail that would guarantee one of them. If it's the second one, I agree we should actually read through and see how well Damo666's post look as being the cop.

Why do you think mafia thought this? Is it because of PE?

Well, b/c why kill Damo666? Everyone else was saying cause Damo could be read as cop. At the very least, we know PE thought day 1 Damo CAN be read as a cop. If PE thinks this, so could Mafia. PE could be Mafia, and tell people to kill Damo, so we'll think Damo is cop, and had a day 1 clear of PE.

[ghug]

What conclusions do you draw from it? You did the analysis.

As a bayesian signal only: I had previous had a null on Durga and a scumlean on you. This moved her higher as a consequence and you as well.

My thoughts on hunting here: I need to find whole teams because finding individuals and then using their flips to update my priors on other reads doesn't work.

i think you actually need to do the opposite. you need to find scummy players individually in this set up. it is way too easy to manipulate interactions with people to look a certain way. your analysis post on me and bona was terrible and if i was scum i could have very easily avoided interacting with a town bona if i wanted to, or vice versa. plus without the flip you can't assume the other player is guilty by association.

the play here is to find all the scummy individuals because we're never gonna find the teams without any info

Like this post (and agree with it)

[kgray]

You were not worried I was looking for a way to save Chaqa. Please.

Excuse me? You were clearly looking for a way to save Chaqa. You said you'd rather kill jasnah than Chaqa. You literally said you didn't want to vote Chaqa. You jumped to worcej at bozo's suggestion even though you'd been saying you thought bozo was scummy. You said something about Chaqa doesn't feel scummy, and then you said *to Chaqa* that momentum wasn't with jasnah and asked who he wanted instead. You noticed Eden saying I caught Chaqa slipping and asked where, but didn't follow up on it at all.

You so obviously wanted to save Chaqa. The fact that you aren't just admitting you wanted to save him because you thought he was town is really suspicious.

Town!kgray kills worcej over jasnah and you cannot convince me otherwise

I'm actually pretty offended, but whatever. This is lazy at best.

Where did he slip again? I feel like I read it and thought it was stupid so probably didn't respond.

I obviously said I would rather keep Chaqa over jasnah but I was not attempting to save him. Which is irrelevant anyway, because tone doesn't translate well, and what I meant when I said "you were not worried" is I mean I don't believe you cared about my stance on Chaqa until maybe after he claimed.

Chaqa seemed to be making a point of almost townreading ghug but keeping him at null, but then he suddenly said something like he was looking forward to ghug townreading him in a few days (below), which just suddenly assumes ghug is town. It was pretty different from his hesitation to throw an actual townread on ghug beforehand.

idk, Flum wasn't impressed, Eden thought it was a slam dunk. Bunny said he didn't get it (not sure he made more of an effort to later?) and TFB said it was nothing but emphasized that he had good reasons to vote Chaqa (back to being sketched out by him, I guess). Anyway, I thought it was convincing, and Chaqa suddenly started accusing me of being scum after having previously stated he knows exactly how to read me and that I'm town. I think it was telling, overall. Probably I should be most concerned with how ghug reacted, but I haven't gone back to review that yet. I think he mostly ignored it.

And I did think you were searching around for wagons that would take off, at the time. Maybe it really is just because you townread Chaqa, and that sort of tracks with what you were saying (except following bozo, that seems weird to me).

Yeah you have been hesitant to townread him and keep giving this wishy-washy “probably town” read, but you’re clearly assuming in that statement that he’s town.

Yeah, it's not a surefire thing yet. Usually there comes a moment where it will click for sure.

Right but my issue isn’t with whether or not you think ghug is town, it’s the surety that he is town that you assumed with your comment about him realizing you’re town. I don’t see how your hesitant mindset justifies that outlook.

[snowy801]

You tried to shut it down? When? How? You thought damo was cop and had a scan on PE......? What? Why would you think damo was cop?

I understand PE's reasoning on why he thought damo was cop d1. I cannot see why you would think damo was the cop.

Why would information available to Eden not be to me? I'm not blind.

It has further occurred to me that damo was the one who publicly introduced the knowledge that cop starts with a scan to the thread, and is exactly the type of player to fake crumb cop as he did. In this world, Chaqa is truly cop and mafia are in fact relying us to "do their dirty work" for them as be says.

I'm not entirely convinced, but I'm listening to either side of the arguments. I think the leaders (chaqa/ghug v Eden/kgray) are being unnecessarily belligerent to each other, in a potentially detrimental manner.

When were you trying to shut me down re:questioning damo?

Damo was full on PR hunting at the beginning of the game. He said a lot of things about a lot of different roles IIRC. Where was damo's fake crumb? You think damo fake crumbed cop so mafia killed damo in hopes that we would then kill Chaqa? Does that make Eden the head of this idea?

viewtopic.php?p=258651#p258651

Now stop making me look up quotes.

[Durga]

While your points have merit and I'm sifting through damo again myself, you seem awfully invested in making sure nobody thinks damo is cop.

How sure would you say you are that Chaqa is cop?

Agh snowy not you and not this. Are you really trying to shade Flum for trying to figure out whether damo is cop?

I think you have it backwards, Fluminator's behavior was quite clearly that of someone who wanted to shut down any meaningful discussion of the idea. He went and cherrypicked the one post from damo that most sounded contrary to the idea that damo was Cop, and ignored the broader body of work (helpfully reposted by bozo) that made a reasonable case.

All I remember is Flum making comments on how he's confirmed scum and then quoting a damo post with little to no context on his end. Calling a quote that very clearly demonstrates damo is unlikely to be cop is not "cherrypicking" - nor do bozo's quotes make a reasonable case but I think I'm not gonna convince you of that one

Where did he shut down meaningful discussion? also, frankly, if he did it was probably for the better because we're not daykilling chaqa without a cc.

[kgray]

Are you serious? You want to off Chaqa without a cc? Why? Damo didn't even shade Chaqa for claiming cop so damo obv wasn't cop??

I wasn’t agreeing that damo was the cop, I thought I saw something else. But yeah I really think chaqa is lying and I don’t think the real cop, if it wasn’t damo, should CC.

What did you think you saw? Why do you think Chaqa is lying if not for this damo narrative? And even if he is, my point still stands about this also being pre-mature. Although now it feels like you're opening the gates for an eventual fake scum cop to reveal themselves down the line. Agh. No flip sucks.

I mean.... a different PR thing. Could just be damo caring about mechs, I don't know.

[snowy801]

Oh there was a second part to it.

I think damo, if not cop, was attempting to draw a kill to himself (successfully, I might add).

As stated in my previous email, Ms. Overlord, I did think that is a possibility. No, I do not think Eden would be involved in such a scheme.

[Durga]

Would you characterize Flum's behavior as trying to figure out whether damo was cop? I would argue he was already certain he wasn't, and invested in proving thus. What do you think of this impression?

You're awfully certain Chaqa isn't the cop from the get go, and invested in proving he isn't. Why is that?

You think so? That's a good point.

What gave you the impression that
a) I am certain Chaqa is not the cop and
b) investing in proving thus?

If you can find any specific posts that points to this I'd be happy to see them.

Come on. You've been egging on this damo!cop idea for whatever reason don't pretend otherwise.

[President Eden]

Why would he not shade chaqa at all if that was the case. Heck, he even said he wanted to daykill someone on the worcej wagon next. That does not strike me as "someone just fake claimed my role, fuck"

The longer he waits to pull the trigger on counterclaiming, the more time he buys to gather information with his role. Especially given that there was a vocal contingent of players calling bullshit on Chaqa’s claim, it seems plausible to me that he would play it cool and try to get more info before making his move. You’ll notice that he carefully avoided giving any opinion on Chaqa.

He full up said Chaqa could be cop, town, or scum. Why would you say that if you're cop. All PR's are constantly afraid that somehow they've been found out and may be the NK. Damo would somehow put in his EoN post that Chaqa shouldn't be trusted, whether subtle or not. That does not exist. At all. That I've seen anyway.

I'm kinda shocked that you're still pushing this narrative when we've already looked through damo's posts and he doesn't negatively react at all to Chaqa's claim. Please point to me how he "carefully avoided giving any opinion" when it seems like he was just null on Chaqa and wanted to see how it played out... and a reasonable PR would at least be like "hm this claim was kinda weird"

I feel like you would push this narrative no matter how damo read Chaqa and find a way to make damo's words into whatever you wanted them to be. How very lawyer-y of you.

He said this:

Chaqa - could be cop, VT or scum, to be discussed tomorrow should he survive

In the same post he described many people as null:

Bona - difficult to read as ever, I assume not online for EOD as vote stayed on Chaqa, null

Bozo - seems a bit understated, slightly scum side of null

Durga - initially thought she was town, now not quite so sure but still townside of null but only just

lfischl - doing the minimum again, null, townside if pushed

rdr - minimal posting, null

Vecna - hasn't obv'd yet, I'm sure he will, null for timebeing

worcej - not really sure why he was such a big wagon yesterday, null at mo

If he thought Chaqa were null, he would have said null, as he did for seven other people. He didn't, and he specifically said he would be discussing it tomorrow should Chaqa survive.

I don't understand:
(1) why you think reading that to mean he avoided an opinion on Chaqa is unreasonable,
(2) why you are suggesting I am making this argument in bad faith, or
(3) why you are being needlessly aggressive and making things personal.

[Fluminator]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

[kgray]

##VOTE worcej

can't kill the cop

Also, what is this weird justification?

I feel like TFB has been a little too careful about all his reads/votes this game.

[Durga]

I don't have a good excuse for wanting to kill a scumread? What is bad play about wanting to kill who I think is scum?

I think the problem here is that you want to kill someone who claimed a role that hasn't been cc'd. Even if you think he's scummy, that's not how this works on d2, and I feel like you should know that.

bona's also noticeably opined to vote out Chaqa. How do you feel about his addition to the wagon?

Okay so I saw that and ignored it and then stopped myself and thought "hmm why did I ignore this post from bona" and then I realized it's because (i'm sorry bona) bona isn't the type of player to really influence anyone else's thoughts and nothing in that para was new or worth addressing so I left him to do whatever he's doing. I noticed there are a few players I do this to after I read Bunny's post and I think that's just the nature of the game being this big. I'll sort them out later.

[President Eden]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

I don't care about being a town clear. I pushed Chaqa pretty hard after ghug and kgray made solid arguments for him being mafia. I thought his Cop claim was bullshit when it happened and still think so. Overnight, when I did my reread, it struck me that damo might be the real Cop, because he was sure I was town from the beginning, before I think I really merited that feeling. I don't see any reason why damo would have been killed over Bunny or Chaqa or some universal town read except if mafia believed him to be a PR.

I don't appreciate you inserting this false narrative of vainglory when I'm earnestly presenting my opinions, being very careful to state how strongly I think they're backed by the evidence, and giving ample credit to other players for their insights where it's due.

[Bonatogether]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

My understanding is that Eden saw a thing, got really excited when some other people saw it too, and then is having a hard time accepting that the details don't line up with some of damo's comments. Damo would know that he would have to be consistent with his softs in order for them to be picked up if he died before revealing, if he was cop, so while the idea is enticing, I don't think it's especially likely that damo is the cop.