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orathaic
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Woke

#1 Post by orathaic » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:07 pm

Just a little diversion/poll.

What does the term, 'Woke' mean to you?

Would you consider yourself woke?
Or would you he annoyed at being described as woke?

Just seeing some, eh, discussion. And wondered what webdip politics followers think.

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Re: Woke

#2 Post by Octavious » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:22 pm

It's just modern day speak for "right-on", isn't it? Generally adopted by left wing political enthusiasts, of the kind who like to be perpetually offended on the behalf of others, as a token of their perceived moral superiority.

If described as woke I would be somewhat surprised and amused, but I'm not sure why it would be particularly annoying. It's not an effective word to use as an insult as those who are woke don't see it as one and calling someone who isn't woke woke just makes you look like an idiot.
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Re: Woke

#3 Post by orathaic » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:01 pm

Thanks Oct, the kind of thing i'm seeing looks like this:
when the right complain about 'wokeness,' what they mean is basic decency being shown to people they think deserve none

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Re: Woke

#4 Post by Octavious » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:58 pm

Yes, I imagine you get quite a lot of comments like that from the left. I dare say some of them even believe it, which is rather sad. But, like I say, those who claim to be woke do enjoy believing in their moral superiority.
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Re: Woke

#5 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:18 am

Just to expand on that slightly, to some extent it's true to say that everyone believes in their moral superiority. If you didn't believe that your morals were the best, why would you keep them over their betters? But there does seem to be a fundamental difference between left and right. The prevailing view of those on the right is that left wingers are generally decent people, but are wrong in what they believe will make the world a better place. The prevailing view of those on the left, demonstrated so effectively by ora's quote and countless other similar comments, is that right wingers are just bad people.
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Re: Woke

#6 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm

I have mostly seen it used as an insult against the left, rather than claimed by people on the left.

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Re: Woke

#7 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:13 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm
I have mostly seen it used as an insult against the left, rather than claimed by people on the left.
That's interesting. Out of curiosity, if I called you woke would you feel insulted?
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Re: Woke

#8 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:52 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm
I have mostly seen it used as an insult against the left, rather than claimed by people on the left.
That's interesting. Out of curiosity, if I called you woke would you feel insulted?
It would depend on the context.

It's like being called a "social justice warrior" as an insult, which is a common thing for right wingers to throw at people like me. I find it amusing that this implies they think fighting for social justice is a *bad* thing.

I know that originally "woke" was used as a term by progressive or left wing people in the USA, in relation to remaining alert to acts of prejudice, especially racial prejudice, so that such things could be called out, challenged, denounced.

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Re: Woke

#9 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:18 pm

@Jamie, i believe the origin lies in black communities in the US waking up to the fact of systemic racism and prejudice that continues to this day.

Being woke was later, eh, culturally appropriated by the left/progressives. Afaik.

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Re: Woke

#10 Post by Fluminator » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:15 am

I'm woke

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Re: Woke

#11 Post by orathaic » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:55 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:15 am
I'm woke
But is that statement cultural appropriation and thus very unwoke?
1

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Re: Woke

#12 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:58 pm

Ah, the bizarre concept of cultural appropriation. It seems little more than the way elements the left justify their destructive racist thinking. It's possibly the most disturbing development to come out of the political classes in recent years
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Re: Woke

#13 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:42 pm

I dunno Octavious, if Disney can take a folk tale, let's say Sleeping Beauty, copyright it, and then prevent others from using it because of the copyright they hold, then they have certainly appropriated the culture of... Let's see Britian/Fraince/Germany? Made it a commodity and privatised what was formerly public domain.

This would certainly be harmful. And i can certainly see Disney using intellectual property law this way (though i don't know if it has actually happened).

Similarly, if a drug company sends someone deep into the Amazon contacts some uncontacted tribe, takes the rare herb which they happen to use to cure things, parents the active ingredients and makes millions, they have certainly profitted without paying appropriate compensation to that tribe.

The point that there are culturally sensitive and appropriate ways of integrating other ideas into our own lives is not particularly 'disturbing'.

And the fact that a capitalist society thends to frame everything around how to exploit or extract the most wealth from any circumstance, makes it unsurprising that this would become a problem.
Last edited by orathaic on Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Woke

#14 Post by Randomizer » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:43 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:58 pm
Ah, the bizarre concept of cultural appropriation. It seems little more than the way elements the left justify their destructive racist thinking. It's possibly the most disturbing development to come out of the political classes in recent years
It applies to more than just white people in America using something from another culture. Europe and China have made it a way to block other countries from selling mostly food under the name of a region, when done with the same ingredients and method. Beverages, meats, cheeses, and China is still mad that New Zealand imported the kiwi and cultivated it to a larger size and better marketing. :)

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Re: Woke

#15 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:12 am

The issue you have there, ora, is with copyright law. I'm unclear how the original culture of the story makes any difference whatsoever. Indeed, as the USA has a decent claim to sharing the culture of the original story I'm unclear how you could even argue that anything resembling cultural appropriation actually happened.

If a drug company improves the lives of countless millions by investing in research and development of natural cures they fully deserve to be rewarded. The value of the drug to humanity will have come almost entirely from the drug company's efforts. I'm not sure exactly what you think the tribe deserves from having their witch doctor lick a toad to get high and discovering it also happens to fix his tooth ache and has a temporary paralysing effect that is brilliant when stealing your neighbouring tribe's stuff.
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Re: Woke

#16 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:18 am

Randomizer wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:43 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:58 pm
Ah, the bizarre concept of cultural appropriation. It seems little more than the way elements the left justify their destructive racist thinking. It's possibly the most disturbing development to come out of the political classes in recent years
It applies to more than just white people in America using something from another culture. Europe and China have made it a way to block other countries from selling mostly food under the name of a region, when done with the same ingredients and method. Beverages, meats, cheeses, and China is still mad that New Zealand imported the kiwi and cultivated it to a larger size and better marketing. :)
So you're saying it's not just a way of justifying racism, but a way of justifying protectionism and stifling trade?
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Re: Woke

#17 Post by orathaic » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:08 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:18 am
Randomizer wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:43 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:58 pm
Ah, the bizarre concept of cultural appropriation. It seems little more than the way elements the left justify their destructive racist thinking. It's possibly the most disturbing development to come out of the political classes in recent years
It applies to more than just white people in America using something from another culture. Europe and China have made it a way to block other countries from selling mostly food under the name of a region, when done with the same ingredients and method. Beverages, meats, cheeses, and China is still mad that New Zealand imported the kiwi and cultivated it to a larger size and better marketing. :)
So you're saying it's not just a way of justifying racism, but a way of justifying protectionism and stifling trade?
So you are saying taking something and giving nothing in return is trade?

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Re: Woke

#18 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:55 pm

What has been taken?

Let's take the fun example of Champagne. Champagne is essentially fizzy wine, and fizzy wine can be made virtually anywhere. However, earlier this year Russia introduced a new law stating that only locally produced fizzy wine cab be called champagne, and that cheap foreign muck such as the stuff France pumps out has to have the generic label of sparkling wine. France, by all accounts, was a tad peeved... but there's nothing new there.

But ultimately who cares? Have a law about putting accurate ingredients and origins on the label, and let the people choose if they want to buy authentic Russian champagne or the French imitation. If someone living in Stilton wants to make stilton cheese they should be able to. It shouldn't be limited to the counties of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire.
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Re: Woke

#19 Post by orathaic » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:34 am

Nice fantasy, but i do 't know about that either of your examples are issues which cultural appropriation criticises.

But glad to see we're not actually talking to each other.

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Re: Woke

#20 Post by Octavious » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:51 am

orathaic wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:34 am
Nice fantasy, but i do 't know about that either of your examples are issues which cultural appropriation criticises.

But glad to see we're not actually talking to each other.
I completely agree that they're not. What I'm struggling with is trying to think of an example where there's some justification in talking about cultural appropriation.

Also, what do you mean by fantasy? The champagne stuff is well known fact.
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