After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

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Jamiet99uk
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#61 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:36 am

leon1122 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:43 am
Afghans chose to have the Taliban as their government.
Please provide evidence for this statement.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#62 Post by Randomizer » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 pm

Unlike the Vietnam Conflict, the "Korean War," and the fighting with the Indians, the Afghanistan War was legally granted by the US Congress as a war.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#63 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:30 pm

leon1122 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:43 am
I look forward to seeing you support the return of the colonies to the House of Windsor.
Self-determination. Americans wanted independence, so the American government is legitimate. Likewise, Afghans chose to have the Taliban as their government, so the Taliban is their legitimate government. Governments propped up by foreign intervention are illegitimate.
The Taliban must be kicking themselves that they spent so many years trying to take Afghanistan by force when apparently all they had to do was stand for elections and win the popular vote.

Or, alternatively, your analysis isn't entirely accurate.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#64 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:35 pm

"Vote Taliban for a happy tomorrow filled with violence against women, public executions, and religious bigotry".
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#65 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 am

Spend a couple of days watching Fox News, or talk to a few Republicans, then tell me the Civil War talk is bunkum. Fox is the moderate American news outlet for Republicans/Trump supporters.

January 6th happened. The views held by "these fascists" / "dangerous nutcases" are the views of probably a majority of Republicans. Republican-controlled state legislatures are passing laws to make it very difficult for poor/black/Democratic voters to vote in coming elections. This is what they're doing in full public view.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/us/p ... urity.html

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#66 Post by leon1122 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:46 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:36 am
leon1122 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:43 am
Afghans chose to have the Taliban as their government.
Please provide evidence for this statement.
The proof is in the result. The Taliban, composed almost entirely of Afghani people, defeated a foreign occupier and took control of the country. Hence they are the government chosen by the Afghani people.
Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:30 pm
leon1122 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:43 am
I look forward to seeing you support the return of the colonies to the House of Windsor.
Self-determination. Americans wanted independence, so the American government is legitimate. Likewise, Afghans chose to have the Taliban as their government, so the Taliban is their legitimate government. Governments propped up by foreign intervention are illegitimate.
The Taliban must be kicking themselves that they spent so many years trying to take Afghanistan by force when apparently all they had to do was stand for elections and win the popular vote.

Or, alternatively, your analysis isn't entirely accurate.
Democracy isn't the only way to make the voice of the people heard. The Afghans have traditionally been a nondemocratic nation, and they have chosen to continue having a nondemocratic government. Domestic revolutions and insurgencies are perfectly legitimate ways of coming to power. The American Revolution comes to mind as a good example. No referendum was ever held on declaring independence, but we still accept it as the legitimate will of the people.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#67 Post by Octavious » Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:07 pm

Do we, though? The reality of the civil war in the Colonies is that it was led by a criminal elite determined to feather their nests, and sponsored by a foreign power who were only interested in trying to destabilise Britain. I have never seen anything to suggest it was democratically legitimate.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#68 Post by Randomizer » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:36 pm

Democratically elected governments don't always result in the people making good choices and some remain in power without having another election that would remove them.

Hitler, Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, and Hamas were all election winners with the last two never allowing another vote. Trump was also elected, but was forced to leave despite his fake claims of winning a second time.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#69 Post by Octavious » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:57 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:36 pm
Democratically elected governments don't always result in the people making good choices and some remain in power without having another election that would remove them.

Hitler, Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, and Hamas were all election winners with the last two never allowing another vote. Trump was also elected, but was forced to leave despite his fake claims of winning a second time.
What’s your point?
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#70 Post by Randomizer » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:51 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:57 pm
Randomizer wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:36 pm
Democratically elected governments don't always result in the people making good choices and some remain in power without having another election that would remove them.

Hitler, Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, and Hamas were all election winners with the last two never allowing another vote. Trump was also elected, but was forced to leave despite his fake claims of winning a second time.
What’s your point?
Just because of the claim that 20 plus years ago after the Soviets left Afghanistan and the Taliban came to power, the people still want them in power.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#71 Post by orathaic » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:58 pm

Afghani people
Firstly, they are Afghans, not Afghani - that is the name of their currency.

Second they are Tajiks, Pashtuns, Uzbeks, and a variety of other ethnic groups mostly linked to other countries. Afghanistan is largely a fabrication, drawn on a map by Imperial powers. The country, it seems has never been united, even in opposition to the US occupation.

3rdly, the Taliban was originally almost exclusively Pashtun, the largest (~60%) ethnic grouping. Linked to the Pakistan's Pashtun tribal areas. So in the 90s a largely Pashtun group managed to mostly end the civil war by being exceedingly brutal. They had the support of Pakistan's military intelligence, who wanted a pro-Pakistani regime. It didn't really suit the so-called 'Northern Warlords', tribal leaders from other ethnicities.

To say that 'the people' choose the government today is to ignore 150 years, no more like 175 years, or imperialist history and influence. It ignores the reasons for ethnic division, the religious differences, the geography. It is, in short, ignorant.

The reality is far more complicated. I suppose by this logic, the American people are culpable for the war, because they at least choose their leaders. I don't think the Russians/Soviets had much choice when they invaded... Same goes for Pakistan.

The people didn't choose this.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#72 Post by orathaic » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:00 pm

Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimaq, Turkmen, Baloch, Pashai, Nuristani, Gujjar, Arab, Brahui, Qizilbash, Pamiri, Kyrgyz, Sadat and others.
and I can't fully describe the ethnic diversity in Afghanistan, only able to name 3 of this list.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#73 Post by Octavious » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:28 pm

Afghani has been used to mean people of Afghanistan for a rather long time in various parts of the world. Afghans may be more common, but as Afghani is both clear in meaning and utterly inoffensive I don't see why there's any need to try and correct it.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#74 Post by leon1122 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:14 am

Octavious wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:07 pm
Do we, though? The reality of the civil war in the Colonies is that it was led by a criminal elite determined to feather their nests, and sponsored by a foreign power who were only interested in trying to destabilise Britain. I have never seen anything to suggest it was democratically legitimate.
It's not "democratically legitimate" because democracy isn't the only path to legitimacy. I concede your point about French interference in the American Revolution and admit that it was not entirely legitimate in that regard, but it also happened in a different environment in regards to international relations, when imperial powers openly sought to undermine each other. Since WW1, the idea of self-determination has been enshrined as a basic tenet of international relations, and the imposition of an unwanted form of government on a foreign country is unacceptable in this day and age.
Randomizer wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:51 pm
Just because of the claim that 20 plus years ago after the Soviets left Afghanistan and the Taliban came to power, the people still want them in power.
There's no real legitimate government of Afghanistan going back centuries since they've all been puppets to foreign powers in one way or another, but the Taliban is clearly more organic and thus legitimate than the US occupation government, Pakistani support notwithstanding.
orathaic wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:58 pm
Second they are Tajiks, Pashtuns, Uzbeks, and a variety of other ethnic groups mostly linked to other countries. Afghanistan is largely a fabrication, drawn on a map by Imperial powers. The country, it seems has never been united, even in opposition to the US occupation.
And they can join their ethnic brethren if they're ever able to win a war of independence. However, I'm not aware that there is even any significant movement that favors separation.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#75 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:14 pm

Since WW1, the idea of self-determination has been enshrined as a basic tenet of international relations, and the imposition of an unwanted form of government on a foreign country is unacceptable in this day and age.

Unless you are Tibetan, Kurdish, any of numerous federal subjects of Russia, Uyghur, Puerto Rican, Hawaiian, first nation peoples in North America, Amazonian Tribe in Brazil, Sami in scandanavia... The aspiration to decolonize is just that, an Aspiration.

@Octavious, generally yes, words are defined by usage, but when it comes to people, what you use to describe them, and how the describe themselves is something worth thinking about.

There's no real legitimate government of Afghanistan going back centuries since they've all been puppets to foreign powers in one way or another,

That seems entirely disengenous. The same family ruled Afghanistan before the British invaded, and after they agreed to become a British protectorate.

AFAIK, They were not puppeted, as the British only really cared about controlling their external relations, so they ruled internal issues pretty much as they wanted. AND they declared their independence in 1919, so definitely not centuries ago.

What happened since then is a separate question. But the claim that there has been not legitimacy for centuries is a complete lie.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#76 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:07 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:14 pm
@Octavious, generally yes, words are defined by usage, but when it comes to people, what you use to describe them, and how the describe themselves is something worth thinking about.
Why, though? If the French want to call me Anglais or the Germans an Engländer then what's the problem? I dare say that there will be a certain sort of person who would take offence by not having a specific word associated with their nationality, but as they're the sort of person I'd quite like to insult anyway it's very much a win win.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#77 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:26 am

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 pm
Unlike the Vietnam Conflict, the "Korean War," and the fighting with the Indians, the Afghanistan War was legally granted by the US Congress as a war.
Sorry, managed to miss this reply.

So what you're saying is that it is defined as the "longest war" because of a bit of legalese used by the US Congress for the purposes of political spin?

Because the truth is that it wasn't a war in any real sense of the word. It was a peacekeeping operation in support of a friendly government struggling against a terrorist insurgency. And peacekeeping lasts a long time. Much like the peacekeeping in Cyprus that has been a continuous operation since the 1960s. Is that a forever war? No, it's a forever peace. Like the military presence in Germany and Korea and Japan has kept the forever peace.

What we have done in Afghanistan is send a massive "fuck you" to the people of the Middle East who, against all common sense and experience, still held the opinion that Western values were something worth aspiring to. We have let them know that we don't give a shit about them. They know that the Russians and the Chinese are bastards, and now they know that we're no better.

And we have shown the world that Biden is a morally corrupt piece of shit. Some of the things he has said about it have been stomach turning.

"The truth is, this did unfold more quickly than we had anticipated"

Oh, really? So you expected them to fall to tyranny but do it slowly? In Biden's pathetic little mind he envisioned the Afghans fighting a doomed war and racking up heavy losses purely to give the West a chance to run away like pitiful cowards more comfortably? What a piece of work! He is the worst president I've ever seen, and he's up against some pretty stiff competition. If he had any respect for the office he'd resign.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#78 Post by orathaic » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:27 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:07 pm
orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:14 pm
@Octavious, generally yes, words are defined by usage, but when it comes to people, what you use to describe them, and how the describe themselves is something worth thinking about.
Why, though? If the French want to call me Anglais or the Germans an Engländer then what's the problem? I dare say that there will be a certain sort of person who would take offence by not having a specific word associated with their nationality, but as they're the sort of person I'd quite like to insult anyway it's very much a win win.
Typically, it costs nothing to use the words which they use to describe themselves.

I mean, you may be fine referring Nertherlanders as Dutch, and Deutsch as German.. And they might not be offended by the general incompetence. But like I said, it costs nothing to be right.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#79 Post by Randomizer » Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:47 pm

Trump's plan for Afghanistan, hit them hard and let them rot.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-says-us- ... ot-1624588

I guess nation destroying is better than nation building, because it's easier. But then Trump invited the Taliban to Camp David and negotiated their return to power for the chance to say he brought the troops home. First time a US president ever invited the other side in a war to US soil.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#80 Post by flash2015 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:57 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:26 am

What we have done in Afghanistan is send a massive "fuck you" to the people of the Middle East who, against all common sense and experience, still held the opinion that Western values were something worth aspiring to. We have let them know that we don't give a shit about them. They know that the Russians and the Chinese are bastards, and now they know that we're no better.

And we have shown the world that Biden is a morally corrupt piece of shit. Some of the things he has said about it have been stomach turning.

"The truth is, this did unfold more quickly than we had anticipated"

Oh, really? So you expected them to fall to tyranny but do it slowly? In Biden's pathetic little mind he envisioned the Afghans fighting a doomed war and racking up heavy losses purely to give the West a chance to run away like pitiful cowards more comfortably? What a piece of work! He is the worst president I've ever seen, and he's up against some pretty stiff competition. If he had any respect for the office he'd resign.
Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel!

I remember how consistent you have been on this...how much you complained when Pompeo and Trump were openly making deals with the Taliban last year. Oh wait...

I could take all this hand wringing more seriously if there was at least a modicum of consistency here.

Was this you too? You were quite happy to allow the US to abandon the Kurds.
What would you have had him do? Erdoğan isn't a problem of Trump's making.
Would you have preferred him to to have left US troops as bystanders in the middle of a confused war zone? Would you have preferred him to have US troops open fire on a NATO ally? Would you have preferred him to try and cripple NATO by seeking to remove Turkey, who provide both a key position and significant military strength?

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