Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

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Octavious
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#101 Post by Octavious » Mon May 24, 2021 8:22 pm

So, aside from the usual suspects of the right leaning press and his political enemies we have a list that also includes

Every major Jewish newspaper
The Jewish Leadership Council
The Jewish Labour Movement
The leader of the Labour Party
The Equality and Human Rights Commission

Seriously, what more do you need? It's less a case of where there's smoke there's fire, and more a case of where there's smoke and fire alarms and extreme heat and a fleet of fire engines and massive feckin flames there's fire.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#102 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon May 24, 2021 9:20 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 8:22 pm
So, aside from the usual suspects of the right leaning press and his political enemies we have a list that also includes

Every major Jewish newspaper
The Jewish Leadership Council
The Jewish Labour Movement
The leader of the Labour Party
The Equality and Human Rights Commission

Seriously, what more do you need? It's less a case of where there's smoke there's fire, and more a case of where there's smoke and fire alarms and extreme heat and a fleet of fire engines and massive feckin flames there's fire.
How many "major Jewish newspapers" are there?

The EHRC did not say that Jeremy Corbyn was an anti-semite, that's a pretty serious distortion of what their report actually said.

The current leader of the Labour party denouncing his immediate predecessor is about as credible as Nikita Kruschev denouncing Stalin (and that's me saying that!) but ok, believe what you want.

What I believe is that anti-Corbyn, pro-establishment elements in the Labour party and the British press have happily bought into the notion that any criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitic and found this to be a convenient stick with which to beat Jeremy Corbyn, who they hated, because he threatened the status quo (and the modern status quo in the UK generally includes uncritical support for Israel and Zionism, even in the face of Israeli genocide against the Palestinians).

Octavious
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#103 Post by Octavious » Mon May 24, 2021 10:01 pm

There are 3 major Jewish newspapers in the UK, one of which happens to be the oldest continually published Jewish newspaper in the world.

I was extremely clear about what EHRC said, and it was deeply shaming to Labour and its leader.

I have some sympathy for your view that left wing politicians are treacherous snakes, but you can't use that as an excuse to dismiss everything you don't like.

The idea that the status quo in the UK is uncritical support for Israel is frankly deranged and bears no resemblance to reality. That you can so easily dismiss the vast array of evidence against Corbyn is frankly astounding

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#104 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 25, 2021 9:26 am

There is evidence that management systems within the Labour party were chaotic as the pro-socialist and anti-socialist factions in the party fought bitterly for control. There is evidence that this caused the party machinery to react more slowly than it ought to have done to complaints regarding anti-Semitism. There is evidence that this made some Jewish party members uncomfortable, and caused them to feel (sometimes with justification) that their concerns were not being taken seriously. All of this is very bad. Jeremy Corbyn was leader during some of that period and must therefore take some of the blame.

Where I take issue is the allegation that Jeremy Corbyn, personally, is an anti-Semite, and I do not believe this to be the case at all.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#105 Post by Octavious » Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am

Apologies for the late reply. Been a busy week.

I have a degree of sympathy for your view. A couple of years ago I'd have been inclined to agree. But it's become increasingly evident that it is not the case.

When Corbyn became Labour leader he attracted a huge number of new members. Many of these were of the free Palestine type, inspired by Corbyn's history of speaking out on the subject. I dare say a lot of these people were perfectly decent types who held no prejudice against Jews, but amongst them were unprecedented numbers of anti-Semites whose membership changed the tone of the Labour Party. I was actually a Labour Party Member at the time (membership fees were only a quid as I was technically a student, and I joined partly out of a desire to vote Corbyn out because I felt the UK needed a competent opposition, and partly out of general curiosity), and was drawn in to some of the Labour forum discussions. It was the first time in my life that I had ever come across people being openly and unashamedly antisemitic (with the possible exception of mapleleaf on webDip, but I was always convinced he was saying stuff like that for shock value rather than actually believing it) . I was genuinely shocked. To their credit the mods were quick to crack down on any overt displays, but there were somehow always new ones.

Now, you can't blame Corbyn for the actions of every Labour member, but you can blame him for how the Party reacted to the real and growing problem of anti-Semitism in their ranks. Corbyn here was abysmal, to the extent that the Party was found responsible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination. The Equality and Human Rights Commission investigation identified serious failings in leadership and an inadequate process of handling anti-Semitism complaints.

Its report said the party was responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act: political interference in anti-Semitism complaints, failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints and harassment. It pointed to a Labour Party that seemed accepting of anti-Semitism.

Corbyn's reaction to this wasn't shame, not a desire to make amends, but instead he chose to try and talk down the significance of the problem. Instead of taking action he tried to blame it on noise created by political opponents and a media conspiracy against him. For this disgraceful response he was rightly suspended and stripped of the whip.

And surrounding the core issue of the atrocious handling of anti-Semitism in his party were the extra events that raised eyebrows. His support of the artist of the blatantly antisemitic mural in Tower Hamlets. His attendance of pro-Hizbollah rallies in London and his description of Hizbollah and Hamas as friends. His invitation of Raed Salah for tea. His reluctance to act against Ken Livingstone. And on and on and on.

All these things individually you can excuse. You can perhaps put his leadership of the Party down to incompetence and naivety rather than active anti-Semitism. But you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to walk away satisfied that Corbyn has no stain on him. It is possible... but to me the weight of evidence is heavily stacked against him. In the modern age anti-Semites rather walk around with swastika tattoos and make it obvious for you. They are subtle. And if Corbyn was antisemitic the actions you'd expect to see are remarkably similar to the actions he actually did. Conclusive proof? No. But I find myself convinced.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#106 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 29, 2021 12:24 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am
I was actually a Labour Party Member at the time (membership fees were only a quid as I was technically a student, and I joined partly out of a desire to vote Corbyn out because I felt the UK needed a competent opposition, and partly out of general curiosity), and was drawn in to some of the Labour forum discussions.
You joined the Labour Party and voted for Jeremy Corbyn despite at the same time professing your profound respect and support for David Cameron and taking every opportunity to attack and smear Corbyn, including on this forum?

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#107 Post by Octavious » Sat May 29, 2021 12:30 pm

No.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#108 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 29, 2021 6:36 pm

Uh.

Octavious
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#109 Post by Octavious » Sat May 29, 2021 7:43 pm

I could repeat what I said again if you like? You seem to have somehow got the crucial bit backwards.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#110 Post by Matticus13 » Sun May 30, 2021 12:52 am

https://news.yahoo.com/bennett-announce ... 47133.html

As soon as tomorrow, Bennett may announce an agreement to form a new government in Israel.
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