MAFIA 66: The Battle for Olympus - Game Thread [hidden]

[Bonatogether]

Further, bona... I asked for a scumtell from you because you sorta brought it up. You gave me a tho g about posting numbers. The easiest thing to manipulate in mafia. I would expect townies to be willing to reveal a little about your mind here. Not necessarily a whole heart-share... But something to urge me to see you as town now, here. This feels like you protecting yourself.

I don't know what would be a town or scumtell for me. I have similar basic ideas for how to play each, and I'm not sure how to distinguish the two from the outside.

I don't really believe on this. Everyone have some tells, usually you work hard to avoid doing it.

My main difficulty as scum is evolving my reads. As you know the answers it's hard to naturally change a read over some posts or some action without being forced. And when town you are always changing your mind and having second thoughts.

I've only played one scum game - in a set up that is not analogous to this, in that it had 2 scumteams and I could genuinely be hunting and do townie behaviors. People didn't account for that and so I was able to get by with a lot of scummy stuff because people said my hunting stuff was actually good and had effort. I have not played as scum in a one scum team vs town set up. Among Us is vaguely comparable to this but not really due to the much shorter rounds and the main sources of information not being publicly verifiable, such as locations and pathing. Here everyone has the same record of what was said, by who, and in a timestamped fashion.

[Bonatogether]

You OR chaqa.

Bona's Imposter tells are that he gets really really stubbornly stuck on one person who shouldn't warrant much suspicion. I admit it's similar to what he's done here with Darg, but I don't think it's the same because that Imposter mentality is usually in respond to accusations, not a proactive push as he was doing here.

It's subtle, and I might be blind to it based on his compelling VCA towniness, but I don't think he's scum here.

When I am pressed, this is my usual strategy, but my normal strategy is to avoid calling excessive attention to myself.

[Bonatogether]

@Food, Responding to all your posts here for ease of writing. @bona, I would love to hear your comments on all this.

The Darg scumread
You comment that at EoN4 (I think this is supposed to be EoN3) Bona is scumreading Darg for a typo. I think everyone would agree that that is a terrible reason to scumread someone and I'm including Bona in that everyone. By putting forward an obviously fake reason for a scumread, people might assume that Bona couldn't possibly be daft enough for that to be his actual reason. The only two plausible actual reasons for Bona to scumread Darg there were if he was cop or ww who had guessed Darg cop. Thus, the intention is to put forward a terrible reason for scumreading Darg to make scum think he has a good reason to scumread Darg and kill him.

Assuming we have town Bona this is the only explanation that makes sense to me. My problem is that even giving him the benefit of the doubt on this, there are still so many questions. He's responded to your messages already and he basically just ignored this point entirely which makes me think he doesn't have a good answer prepared.

What does not having a good answer prepared indicate? But this is solid reasoning.

The Brain/Kak/Demon scumreads
I think your call out of Bona's word choice with 'incompetence' is on point. Rereading Demon's D1, he feels far more disengaged, apathetic, or just generally inactive. That said, I don't agree with your argument that he scumread Brain and Kak more. About brain he wrote that "I think the Macca thing from him was towny but he overreacted". There is uncertainty there that doesn't exist in his read of Demon. And he clearly saw Kak more as a null saying "I dunno how to read him".

I stand by my wording of incompetence. His reads, when given, had bad reasoning in a way that did not line up with my understanding of how town!demon plays.

The kgray/celaph scumreads
He's right here that you have misrepresented his previous statements a little bit. I think I remember him saying something about his reads changing at the time. I think it's scummy though how he doesn't seem to have updated this read since then. He posted his POE recently and his scumread of kgray seems to rest entirely on this D2 piece. Has nothing she done before or after this that impacted his opinion at all?

More generally, he's been particularly lackluster when it comes to pushing his scumreads. To connect to his Darg scumread, one of the things that makes me doubt my explanation of his behavior then is that his Darg scumread wasn't obviously different from his other scumreads. They've all been weakly defended and argued.

The scummiest thing a person has done should be the indicator of how likely to be scum they are. A person who has obvtowned day after day is, by nature, obviously town, but a person who has a similar series of obvtowning but one very scummy post is most likely a scum with deep cover. Kgray's scummiest post is that one from d2, so that is the benchmark by which I judge her.

Macca
You mentioned Macca very briefly in your last post, but I think there is more there than you've included. N1 Bona excused Macca for missing the night. D2 Bona listed Macca as one of his two townreads because of their vibes. Yet two pages later he responds to your question asking if he townreads Macca with "not especially". D3 he recommends that Macca gets subbed out instead of killed. And Macca is non-existent in his most recent POE.

More generally, there have been a bunch of things that around Macca that I would expect Bona to comment on while he hasn't.
-- Macca was one of the other main pushers of Darg though seems to have actually scumread Darg which differs from Bona's given reason.
-- Macca seems to be the most popular DK tomorrow and Bona has left them out of his POE, presumably because he thinks they are town. Presumably Bona believes that we will lose if we vote out Macca so why hasn't he put up any defense of them whatsoever?
-- @Bona, you said that food was misrepresenting your stance on Macca and didn't want to get into this again. Can you point towards where you got into this the first time because I can't find it?

Why would you have expected me to comment on those?
1) Yes, I do go back and forth on them.

a) Ok? When I was nk baiting I'm not going to question someone who agrees with my outward position.

b) Macca seemed to be doing fine on their own as a persistent almost-wagon. I believe it is town-driven because very few scum would repeatedly start the same wagon 3 days in a row.

c) Arguing over Macca was the first thing I did this game lol.

[Bonatogether]

—i think it’s important to remember that Kakarroto fooled scum into NKing him. I thought Kak’s claim looked bizarre and scummy (why, why, why would cop ever claim at night when they were a scumlean of several players and there was an extant believed claim?) and I think a level headed team would have killed darg and RBd kak in case and benefited from the confusion, because... that move by Kak would destabilize town if he hadn’t been killed. In particular Chaqa was online and interacting with Kak’s claim and I don’t think scum!Chaqa makes sense there... I think chaqa is savvy enough to stay the course there if he’s scum, because Kak’s claim was so outlandish.

—damo fought my questioning well tonight and I liked what kgray said about him and rdr. This brings my POE down to exactly celaph yavu bona macca.

Claiming to have solved the game.

Is there no chance you are wrong on any of your townreads? Are scum simply incapable of acting in a townie fashion? Are you Sherlock Holmes?

—i think it’s important to remember that town didn’t just luck out with demon. It’s so easy to misdirect town D1 to get a miskill. So scum either bussed or allowed it to happen. I still think Bona used very strange words to characterize Demon’s play - “incompetent” and “sub par”- that do not make sense from a townie perspective. I think bona maybe drew GF and let it get to his head, or also note demon repeatedly scum-linked celaph and bona, which may have annoyed them. I think celaph would have moved off but bona essentially condemned demon and celaph was stuck because of bona’s play. I also think this fits the fact that others have characterized bona’s previous scumplay as “bold” and “confident” and I find him very arrogant.

You're claiming to know my role now too, huh? @chaqa, am I the sort of person who would let the name of the role interfere with my play? (I wish eden were playing )

As for being arrogant, it's not arrogance if I'm right

—macca and bona interacted tonight in a way that was the most obvious scum theatre I puked. Macca is getting ready to bus bona.

Please explain.

—i would love to flip yavu or bona first because it gives us more info - macca has not been terribly active. However flipping Macca first is still fine and in particular I think Macca is the janitor (hence why no N1 janitor, and then they were afraid of upsetting the cart once all the speculation about the RBs began), so we can finish off that line of speculation about the RBd players being janitor.

It's 6-4. Today is lylo. We miskill today, 5-4 heading into night, they kill, they win. Info flips, if we wanted one, should have been days ago. Vote for scum and not for information.

—It’s not at all impossible I’m wrong about damo, chaqa, kgray or rdr, but there are good reasons to see them as town and I’d have to get really tinfoily to vote them. I have tried to find the scum in these players and can’t, whereas my proposed team have all acted scummy throughout the game (except yavu, who I think has blended very well).

If it's possible you're wrong about them, put them in your POE. Easy. If they're not locktown they are possible scum and you must account for the possibility that they are.

—and as I write that, I realize I’d like to vote macca or bona first because I’m still a little uneasy with yav. I read him today... probably his biggest scum moment was when he tried to continue the narrative that darg was scum (i can’t recall if that was after maniac’s claim or kak’s). Or his weird push on rdr for voting HB. Definitely more squirrely...

Your POE is 4 people, when there are 4 scum remaining. You are claiming to have solved the game. If you are unsure in any way, then you cannot make this assertion. Please, for the love of god, don't let scum slip under the radar like this.

There's a handy tool to check if he tried to continue the narrative after the claims. :)

[Bonatogether]

Scum are slow to vote

Why?

[Bonatogether]

I've got replies lined up, but won't be able to send them for a couple hours (when I get my next free time). For now, ##VOTE bona . I'm open to other kills, but he's dropped hard and fast.

What do you mean by this? Replies lined up normally means that you have them typed up, so I do not see what prevents you from posting them now.

[Bonatogether]

You OR chaqa.

Bona's Imposter tells are that he gets really really stubbornly stuck on one person who shouldn't warrant much suspicion. I admit it's similar to what he's done here with Darg, but I don't think it's the same because that Imposter mentality is usually in respond to accusations, not a proactive push as he was doing here.

It's subtle, and I might be blind to it based on his compelling VCA towniness, but I don't think he's scum here.

When I am pressed, this is my usual strategy, but my normal strategy is to avoid calling excessive attention to myself.

I also rescind Chaqa being my spokeperson but I will give some posts of his the bona stamp of approval (when they say i'm town)

[Bonatogether]

After my test is over (11 est) I have no school for the rest of the day or on wednesday so I will have more time to talk.

[celaph]

The Darg scumread
snipped

What does not having a good answer prepared indicate? But this is solid reasoning.

It indicates that you hadn't thought it through. Food was criticizing you for claiming to be softing cop at a time that you were openly scumreading Darg. My point is that your scumreading of Darg was your cop soft claim which you seem to agree with now. Yet if this was your intention all along, I would expect it to be at the forefront of your mind and make for an easy response to food's attack. That fact that you had to wait for me to say it makes me think that you're just trying to fit an advantageous description to your past actions.

The Brain/Kak/Demon scumreads
snipped

I stand by my wording of incompetence. His reads, when given, had bad reasoning in a way that did not line up with my understanding of how town!demon plays.

The kgray/celaph scumreads
snipped

The scummiest thing a person has done should be the indicator of how likely to be scum they are. A person who has obvtowned day after day is, by nature, obviously town, but a person who has a similar series of obvtowning but one very scummy post is most likely a scum with deep cover. Kgray's scummiest post is that one from d2, so that is the benchmark by which I judge her.

I feel like we've both seen a lot of very bad play before and I don't recall you using incompetent before, though it's possible that's just NAI.

I disagree and it feels like you're using your second argument here as cover. What did you think about Macca's very underwhelming catch-up? Why aren't they scum? In an opposite vein, I found Jamie's early game incredibly scummy, but ever since Maniac left he's looked super towny. Why can't your read change?

Macca
snipped

Why would you have expected me to comment on those?
1) Yes, I do go back and forth on them.

a) Ok? When I was nk baiting I'm not going to question someone who agrees with my outward position.

b) Macca seemed to be doing fine on their own as a persistent almost-wagon. I believe it is town-driven because very few scum would repeatedly start the same wagon 3 days in a row.

c) Arguing over Macca was the first thing I did this game lol.

I call out these points in particular because I think that you're scum with Macca given y'alls interactions. You say that you think that their wagon is town-driven, but I didn't ask what you thought of their wagon. Do you think it's town pushing another town or town pushing a scum? If you think that town is pushing another town, then why aren't you trying to stop us?

[celaph]

You OR chaqa.

Bona's Imposter tells are that he gets really really stubbornly stuck on one person who shouldn't warrant much suspicion. I admit it's similar to what he's done here with Darg, but I don't think it's the same because that Imposter mentality is usually in respond to accusations, not a proactive push as he was doing here.

It's subtle, and I might be blind to it based on his compelling VCA towniness, but I don't think he's scum here.

You commented on his push of Darg, but what about his pushes on kgray, food, and myself. In your very next post you list us 3 + Bona as the four you'd be least likely to vote for (not counting your hard line). Does it not seem like he's been stubbornly stuck on us 3 when we, at least according to your list, don't warrant suspicion?

[celaph]

I don't know what would be a town or scumtell for me. I have similar basic ideas for how to play each, and I'm not sure how to distinguish the two from the outside.

I don't really believe on this. Everyone have some tells, usually you work hard to avoid doing it.

My main difficulty as scum is evolving my reads. As you know the answers it's hard to naturally change a read over some posts or some action without being forced. And when town you are always changing your mind and having second thoughts.

I've only played one scum game - in a set up that is not analogous to this, in that it had 2 scumteams and I could genuinely be hunting and do townie behaviors. People didn't account for that and so I was able to get by with a lot of scummy stuff because people said my hunting stuff was actually good and had effort. I have not played as scum in a one scum team vs town set up. Among Us is vaguely comparable to this but not really due to the much shorter rounds and the main sources of information not being publicly verifiable, such as locations and pathing. Here everyone has the same record of what was said, by who, and in a timestamped fashion.

I think it's understandable for Bona to not know his own scum tells assuming he hasn't played much scum. Is there anyone alive who can speak to Bona's performances as scum on discord?

Secondly, the highlighted line is just a lie. We all thought that your play was incredibly anti-town, but assumed that scum would back down under the pressure you were under. We thought you were town not because you were a good hunter, but because of your boldness.

[celaph]

—i think it’s important to remember that Kakarroto fooled scum into NKing him. I thought Kak’s claim looked bizarre and scummy (why, why, why would cop ever claim at night when they were a scumlean of several players and there was an extant believed claim?) and I think a level headed team would have killed darg and RBd kak in case and benefited from the confusion, because... that move by Kak would destabilize town if he hadn’t been killed. In particular Chaqa was online and interacting with Kak’s claim and I don’t think scum!Chaqa makes sense there... I think chaqa is savvy enough to stay the course there if he’s scum, because Kak’s claim was so outlandish.

—damo fought my questioning well tonight and I liked what kgray said about him and rdr. This brings my POE down to exactly celaph yavu bona macca.

Claiming to have solved the game.

Is there no chance you are wrong on any of your townreads? Are scum simply incapable of acting in a townie fashion? Are you Sherlock Holmes?

—i think it’s important to remember that town didn’t just luck out with demon. It’s so easy to misdirect town D1 to get a miskill. So scum either bussed or allowed it to happen. I still think Bona used very strange words to characterize Demon’s play - “incompetent” and “sub par”- that do not make sense from a townie perspective. I think bona maybe drew GF and let it get to his head, or also note demon repeatedly scum-linked celaph and bona, which may have annoyed them. I think celaph would have moved off but bona essentially condemned demon and celaph was stuck because of bona’s play. I also think this fits the fact that others have characterized bona’s previous scumplay as “bold” and “confident” and I find him very arrogant.

You're claiming to know my role now too, huh? @chaqa, am I the sort of person who would let the name of the role interfere with my play? (I wish eden were playing )

As for being arrogant, it's not arrogance if I'm right

—macca and bona interacted tonight in a way that was the most obvious scum theatre I puked. Macca is getting ready to bus bona.

Please explain.

—i would love to flip yavu or bona first because it gives us more info - macca has not been terribly active. However flipping Macca first is still fine and in particular I think Macca is the janitor (hence why no N1 janitor, and then they were afraid of upsetting the cart once all the speculation about the RBs began), so we can finish off that line of speculation about the RBd players being janitor.

It's 6-4. Today is lylo. We miskill today, 5-4 heading into night, they kill, they win. Info flips, if we wanted one, should have been days ago. Vote for scum and not for information.

—It’s not at all impossible I’m wrong about damo, chaqa, kgray or rdr, but there are good reasons to see them as town and I’d have to get really tinfoily to vote them. I have tried to find the scum in these players and can’t, whereas my proposed team have all acted scummy throughout the game (except yavu, who I think has blended very well).

If it's possible you're wrong about them, put them in your POE. Easy. If they're not locktown they are possible scum and you must account for the possibility that they are.

—and as I write that, I realize I’d like to vote macca or bona first because I’m still a little uneasy with yav. I read him today... probably his biggest scum moment was when he tried to continue the narrative that darg was scum (i can’t recall if that was after maniac’s claim or kak’s). Or his weird push on rdr for voting HB. Definitely more squirrely...

Your POE is 4 people, when there are 4 scum remaining. You are claiming to have solved the game. If you are unsure in any way, then you cannot make this assertion. Please, for the love of god, don't let scum slip under the radar like this.

There's a handy tool to check if he tried to continue the narrative after the claims. :)

I think Bona's responses here are actually pretty good. His criticism of food's GF explanation and small POE are well founded. That said, I think he would be wise to take his own advice on some of these fronts.

[celaph]

Least in favor of killing
food
kgray
damo
Jamie
rdr
Chaqa
yavu
Bona
Macca
Most in favor of killing

If Macca's town here I think we've just lost. There is no way I see them surviving 4 days. We have very little D1-2 to work off. Their catchup D3 was poor. Their push on Darg was bizarre. So little is town here.

For many of the reasons that myself and others have called out, I think Bona looks particularly suspect. The two parts that are sticking out for me are their interactions with Macca and their thought process around the cop soft claim.

Chaqa is falling on my list given the way he's defending Bona. It doesn't feel natural.

Rdr has steadily become townier as the game has gone on. I agree with kgray's argument that his play has felt really natural.

Jamie's looked a lot townier ever since the Maniac vote and I agree with Chaqa's comments here that his play regarding the ww felt both natural and towny, as if he had little to fear.

[celaph]

@yavu would love to hear your thoughts on the state of affairs.

[damo666]

Least in favor of killing
food
kgray
damo
Jamie
rdr
Chaqa
yavu
Bona
Macca
Most in favor of killing

If Macca's town here I think we've just lost. There is no way I see them surviving 4 days. We have very little D1-2 to work off. Their catchup D3 was poor. Their push on Darg was bizarre. So little is town here.

For many of the reasons that myself and others have called out, I think Bona looks particularly suspect. The two parts that are sticking out for me are their interactions with Macca and their thought process around the cop soft claim.

Chaqa is falling on my list given the way he's defending Bona. It doesn't feel natural.

Rdr has steadily become townier as the game has gone on. I agree with kgray's argument that his play has felt really natural.

Jamie's looked a lot townier ever since the Maniac vote and I agree with Chaqa's comments here that his play regarding the ww felt both natural and towny, as if he had little to fear.

This is an excellent post.

In addition to Macca having to be scum for town to win I think food has to be town for us to win as his survival looks as inevitable as Macca's demise.

Town

Damo
Food celaph
rdr
Jamie
Kgray
Bona Chaqa
Yav
Macca

Mafia

I can't see Macca or Yav surviving so let's get rid of them first. We can sort the more dubious pair later.

If Macca or Yav are town then well played scum.

I think Bona may well be scum but I'm not convinced enough for him to be the right kill today. I will only vote Bona to save anybody above him in my list.

[damo666]

Rip Dargo.

I think at this point I can hardly see a team without Macca. I have less confidence on Bona, but I understand the reasons to vote him. I am also willing to vote Yav.

My guess for the scum team is Macca, Yav, one of Bona or Celaph and one deep threat between Chaqa, Damo and Kgray. Right now I would bet on Damo that is holding just on his RB claim.

##vote Macca

I like this post. Except you are wrong about me rdr but I can understand where you are coming from.

[damo666]

Scum are slow to vote

Why?

What do you mean why? I don't know why.

I was making the vaguely humourous point that it looked like only townsfolk had voted at that time. (Although some doubt on Chaqa).

[Jamiet99uk]

Hi Macca

[TheMadMonarch]

Hi Jamie!

[rdrivera2005]

Least in favor of killing
food
kgray
damo
Jamie
rdr
Chaqa
yavu
Bona
Macca
Most in favor of killing

If Macca's town here I think we've just lost. There is no way I see them surviving 4 days. We have very little D1-2 to work off. Their catchup D3 was poor. Their push on Darg was bizarre. So little is town here.

For many of the reasons that myself and others have called out, I think Bona looks particularly suspect. The two parts that are sticking out for me are their interactions with Macca and their thought process around the cop soft claim.

Chaqa is falling on my list given the way he's defending Bona. It doesn't feel natural.

Rdr has steadily become townier as the game has gone on. I agree with kgray's argument that his play has felt really natural.

Jamie's looked a lot townier ever since the Maniac vote and I agree with Chaqa's comments here that his play regarding the ww felt both natural and towny, as if he had little to fear.

This is an excellent post.

In addition to Macca having to be scum for town to win I think food has to be town for us to win as his survival looks as inevitable as Macca's demise.

Town

Damo
Food celaph
rdr
Jamie
Kgray
Bona Chaqa
Yav
Macca

Mafia

I can't see Macca or Yav surviving so let's get rid of them first. We can sort the more dubious pair later.

If Macca or Yav are town then well played scum.

I think Bona may well be scum but I'm not convinced enough for him to be the right kill today. I will only vote Bona to save anybody above him in my list.

I have to agree with you both in most points. I just don't understand how on Earth you could put Jamiet so low on your list. I see very little scenarios where scum Jamiet deals with HB the way he did.

I think flipping Macca is the way to go. If we don't lose we will have one scum role more to analyze data and also one more town (scum NK). Does someone have Macca out of his current 4 scum team bet?