MAFIA 66: The Battle for Olympus - Game Thread [hidden]

[foodcoats]

While I independently think they are both scummy, I think that it's unlikely that both HB and Jamie are scum together given the former's vote on the latter here. Especially after the last two town members self-voted, it seems pretty easy for one to come up with an excuse about why Jamie shouldn't be killed today. Additionally, if Jamie was intending to be bussed, then his reaction here will make it much harder for scum on his wagon to get town cred by making himself an obvious kill and his reads matter less.

##vote Jamie

Jamie didn't self-vote though?

His choice to stop posting has a similar feel to me. It feels incredibly anti-town, but it's to the point that I don't usually expect scum to act this way. Just like with the self-votes. And I expect that someone could defend them similarly.

I know Jamie has done this in at least one game I played in, but I can't recall his alignment.

It's definitely a legitimate scum-tactic because Jamie keeps coming up in the conversation due to his lack of engagement, but at the same time his lack of engagement is kind of forcing our hand to not shimmy-ding-dong him, because it seems a lot of us can't help but think that maybe it is not scummy, that surely Jamie would NOT act this way as scum.

There's definitely no reason to write off Jamie's alignment one way or another based on his activity or this tactic... let me look at dem votes.

D1 - Maniac. Vanity.
D2 - Votes darg for a time, then Maniac.
D3 - Maniac, Macca, Maniac.

I started to read Jamie's iso a bit and decided to look away because it is hard to draw anything from it. Instead, what does this tunnel on Maniac mean?

What about RHK's flip? Jamie was absent for about 2 hours before and after the flip. But this means he "left" the game in a state where RHK led at 5-3-3. The fact that he was still awake at the time of the British evening (because he came back on a few hours after the vote) means that he left the game not caring if RHK flipped. I think this strongly suggests he's town.

Also, this quote looks like a non-scum prodding at the top wagon:

What's weird to me is how Demon has been posting but hasn't addressed the elephant in the room. Why would that be, Demon? I think most players, being the lead wagon, would offer some sort of defense. Maybe?

What elephant? That I'm catching a ton of votes? People think I'm a shit player and I'm an easy miskill.

So you think most of the people on you are scum?

I think Jamie is at best the werewolf. I was wondering if he has some information on Maniac, like, for example, Maniac visiting him as the werewolf, but that doesn't make any sense. I think he is just angry or busy, or busy and becoming angry because we are honing in on him for being a little less engaged than usual (though he WAS subbed into the game), and that looks bad, but he maybe doesn't even really care. Even if he is town, he may not totally care if town loses. He plays a lot of mafia, right? One more for the history books.

Okay, I'm actually pretty sold on it. Jamie is not scum.

[foodcoats]

Can you give me the Cliff Notes here? What makes you scumread Jamie overall?

I wish I could give you a hard, well-defined reason. What you read from me is exactly where my brain keeps going...back and forth. Hardly anything logical; it's all based on gut-reads where I don't like something that I read, but then I do like something I read.

Also, we know that Hamilton is on Jamie even though he has made cases for both town-Jamie and scum-Jamie and admits that he is uncertain. He was also uncertain about celaph.

Sorry if I am tunneling, but there is a good case for Ham to be scum here.

Did you all see how much effort HB put into town-reading yavu? But the same level of effort is not expended to scum-read Jamie or celaph, who he has voted for.

Very, very scummy of HB.

There are some things about HB that are bringing me around to maybe townreading him; it's a very difficult sort. But I would not at all be surprised if Hamilton is scum.

[foodcoats]

While I independently think they are both scummy, I think that it's unlikely that both HB and Jamie are scum together given the former's vote on the latter here. Especially after the last two town members self-voted, it seems pretty easy for one to come up with an excuse about why Jamie shouldn't be killed today. Additionally, if Jamie was intending to be bussed, then his reaction here will make it much harder for scum on his wagon to get town cred by making himself an obvious kill and his reads matter less.

##vote Jamie

celaph, I want to understand this more. kgray already pointed out that Jamie did not self-vote; you are saying that Jamie is "giving up" in the same way as Flum and worcej, and I agree with that. But in both cases, it signalled town. So why in your view do you arrive at Jamie being scum and vote for him?

Also, are you saying that part of your scum-read on Jamie is that he is deliberately trying to be bussed? Are you suggesting we DK Jamie because you think he wants to be DK'd to give his team credit by bussing him?

If that is the case, does that not mean YOU are scum, getting credit?

I do read your case that you think Jamie is perhaps not as engaged as usual. What do you think of my argument that his voting D1 is very townie?

[celaph]

If I discard thsoe I deem to be town for one reason another and I discard certain pairs as they don't make sense as scumpartners I am amazingly only left with one possible scumteam.

I am happy to announce the scumteam are:

Jamie
Macca
rdr
yav

Anyone apart from darg and I could be ww.

Prove me wrong.

Damo can you walk me through your thought process here on how you're eliminating people? At least for Maniac given that he's the top wagon at the moment.

[foodcoats]

Done a re-read of Jamie and gone over all his useful comments with a fine tooth comb borrowed from a forensic examiner. Here are the result...

“You started that thread and my current assumption is you are a troll sucking Jordan Peterson's tiny Kermit cock, fuck you.” – to Flum p59
“Well you voted for Worcej, you useless fuck. So why don't you tell me?” – to Chaqa 165
“As for the rest of your post, go fuck yourself, you utter prick.” To Maniac p169
“Fuck ANZAC day. Sub out if you can't participate.” To Macca p188
“also, fuck you Macca” p198
“Fuck you.” P226 – could be to anyone
“BE MORE SPECIFIC OR FUCK OFF” to foodcoats p252
“This is my last post of the current phase. I'm tired of this constant abuse.” P252

Conclusion, none really, but it's quite funny

Maniac, what do you think of my argument that Jaime's D1 voting could not be scum-motivated? That, if scum, Jamie would not - or at least, been less likely to - have disappeared when RHK was the lead wagon?

[kgray]

If I discard thsoe I deem to be town for one reason another and I discard certain pairs as they don't make sense as scumpartners I am amazingly only left with one possible scumteam.

I am happy to announce the scumteam are:

Jamie
Macca
rdr
yav

Anyone apart from darg and I could be ww.

Prove me wrong.

Why can you and darg not be the werewolf?

[foodcoats]

@macca @maniac, who are you townreading at the moment?

Everyone who isn’t Celaph, rdriveria, chaqa and Jamie (who seems off)

I need to look elsewhere too and not be lazy just because I’m confident in my scum reads. But for today I can’t see myself voting for anyone else.

##vote Jamie

Maniac, can you explain a bit your scum reads on rdr and Chaqa?

[kgray]

Let me ask you this, then, since I'm towning on you...if it might be the wrong play to axe Jamie today who'd be a better replacement? Still Maniac or one of Macca/RDR/Yav? Hold off on answering that. I'd like to see if I can look at VCA to see who might generate more info. If I can't come up with it you'll know when I raise the white flag.

You shouldn't vote people based on who generates more info, you should vote the people you scumread. Why would it be the wrong play to axe Jamie today? Do you think he's town?

[foodcoats]

If I discard thsoe I deem to be town for one reason another and I discard certain pairs as they don't make sense as scumpartners I am amazingly only left with one possible scumteam.

I am happy to announce the scumteam are:

Jamie
Macca
rdr
yav

Anyone apart from darg and I could be ww.

Prove me wrong.

Why can you and darg not be the werewolf?

Can darg be werewolf who claimed cop?

That would be wild.

[kgray]

I like at least two of those names. Probably three.

Settle on up to the bar and tell me about those two.

Interesting that Yav keeps coming up as scum to other people. Again my read was focused on who they were towning and scumming, but I felt I read enough in between to have a decent sense of them. Is that why they're not really letting up on Rivera? Theatre?

Let me ask you this, then, since I'm towning on you...if it might be the wrong play to axe Jamie today who'd be a better replacement? Still Maniac or one of Macca/RDR/Yav? Hold off on answering that. I'd like to see if I can look at VCA to see who might generate more info. If I can't come up with it you'll know when I raise the white flag.

I really, really dislike this "generate more info" justification for a wagon. You should vote who you think have the most chance to flip scum, this is usefull information. Flipping someone because he was the counter wagon of X or because he voted on Y is usually lazy and a good way for scum to push town miskill without much commitment.

Spokesperson! See, it does go both ways.

[foodcoats]

Let me ask you this, then, since I'm towning on you...if it might be the wrong play to axe Jamie today who'd be a better replacement? Still Maniac or one of Macca/RDR/Yav? Hold off on answering that. I'd like to see if I can look at VCA to see who might generate more info. If I can't come up with it you'll know when I raise the white flag.

You shouldn't vote people based on who generates more info, you should vote the people you scumread. Why would it be the wrong play to axe Jamie today? Do you think he's town?

The other really problematic thing about HB's post here is he is now hedging against Jamie, who he is currently voting!!! and is also now saying, "Oh, maybe we do DK yav?" who he just made three big posts defending as town!!!

[celaph]

While I independently think they are both scummy, I think that it's unlikely that both HB and Jamie are scum together given the former's vote on the latter here. Especially after the last two town members self-voted, it seems pretty easy for one to come up with an excuse about why Jamie shouldn't be killed today. Additionally, if Jamie was intending to be bussed, then his reaction here will make it much harder for scum on his wagon to get town cred by making himself an obvious kill and his reads matter less.

##vote Jamie

celaph, I want to understand this more. kgray already pointed out that Jamie did not self-vote; you are saying that Jamie is "giving up" in the same way as Flum and worcej, and I agree with that. But in both cases, it signalled town. So why in your view do you arrive at Jamie being scum and vote for him?

Also, are you saying that part of your scum-read on Jamie is that he is deliberately trying to be bussed? Are you suggesting we DK Jamie because you think he wants to be DK'd to give his team credit by bussing him?

If that is the case, does that not mean YOU are scum, getting credit?

I do read your case that you think Jamie is perhaps not as engaged as usual. What do you think of my argument that his voting D1 is very townie?

For similar reasons as how you outlined above, I've tried to leave Jamie's giving up out of my read on him and based my scumread mostly on his other plays though I'm seeing now that including my vote in my message about HB was probably confusing.

My feelings on the matter are that HB could have used the same argument you used in your first paragraph to shade a Jamie wagon really easily and instead he created one making me think there is no more than 1 scum between the 2.

I'm processing your argument about his D1 voting at the minute. My immediate thought is that it's relatively persuasive, but I don't think I am as convinced as your last line paints you as. That said, it deserves a full response on it's own.

[kgray]

What about RHK's flip? Jamie was absent for about 2 hours before and after the flip. But this means he "left" the game in a state where RHK led at 5-3-3. The fact that he was still awake at the time of the British evening (because he came back on a few hours after the vote) means that he left the game not caring if RHK flipped. I think this strongly suggests he's town.

This is pretty compelling... Maybe he thought being on Maniac with ghug was enough? Vecna was scumreading Maniac also. But considering it was his birthday and he probably knew he wouldn't be back for EOD he could have put his vote somewhere more viable, yeah. Without Demon flipping scum that would be pretty sus itself, but I think you're right. It doesn't seem like he cared if Demon was the DK, so less likely that he's mafia.

[kgray]

If I discard thsoe I deem to be town for one reason another and I discard certain pairs as they don't make sense as scumpartners I am amazingly only left with one possible scumteam.

I am happy to announce the scumteam are:

Jamie
Macca
rdr
yav

Anyone apart from darg and I could be ww.

Prove me wrong.

Why can you and darg not be the werewolf?

Can darg be werewolf who claimed cop?

That would be wild.

It really would be pretty nuts, and I don't think it's the case. But if he got a CC out of it, he could have eaten that person N1 and at least had immunity for the next day. I just don't know why damo thinks it's impossible.

[foodcoats]

Something else that occurred to me is that HB said he had a null to scum read on RHK but didn’t vote him and stayed on vanities.

However HB was happy to put the worcej and flum wagons into the lead on those days. In other words he was not at all afraid of going in hard on townie flips, even though he did not touch a wagon he suggested could be scum and indeed WAS scum.

He also refuses to very clearly and unambiguously scum read the wagons he has voted for today.

If HB happens know that my vote will fly true.

[rdrivera2005]

Why can you and darg not be the werewolf?

Can darg be werewolf who claimed cop?

That would be wild.

It really would be pretty nuts, and I don't think it's the case. But if he got a CC out of it, he could have eaten that person N1 and at least had immunity for the next day. I just don't know why damo thinks it's impossible.

And then what? He will need to eat correctly each night until the end of game to win and also avoid being roleblocked. I think it´s safe to consider impossible for Dargo to be WW.

[damo666]

Jamie didn't self-vote though?

His choice to stop posting has a similar feel to me. It feels incredibly anti-town, but it's to the point that I don't usually expect scum to act this way. Just like with the self-votes. And I expect that someone could defend them similarly.

I know Jamie has done this in at least one game I played in, but I can't recall his alignment.

It's definitely a legitimate scum-tactic because Jamie keeps coming up in the conversation due to his lack of engagement, but at the same time his lack of engagement is kind of forcing our hand to not shimmy-ding-dong him, because it seems a lot of us can't help but think that maybe it is not scummy, that surely Jamie would NOT act this way as scum.

There's definitely no reason to write off Jamie's alignment one way or another based on his activity or this tactic... let me look at dem votes.

D1 - Maniac. Vanity.
D2 - Votes darg for a time, then Maniac.
D3 - Maniac, Macca, Maniac.

I started to read Jamie's iso a bit and decided to look away because it is hard to draw anything from it. Instead, what does this tunnel on Maniac mean?

What about RHK's flip? Jamie was absent for about 2 hours before and after the flip. But this means he "left" the game in a state where RHK led at 5-3-3. The fact that he was still awake at the time of the British evening (because he came back on a few hours after the vote) means that he left the game not caring if RHK flipped. I think this strongly suggests he's town.

Also, this quote looks like a non-scum prodding at the top wagon:

What elephant? That I'm catching a ton of votes? People think I'm a shit player and I'm an easy miskill.

So you think most of the people on you are scum?

I think Jamie is at best the werewolf. I was wondering if he has some information on Maniac, like, for example, Maniac visiting him as the werewolf, but that doesn't make any sense. I think he is just angry or busy, or busy and becoming angry because we are honing in on him for being a little less engaged than usual (though he WAS subbed into the game), and that looks bad, but he maybe doesn't even really care. Even if he is town, he may not totally care if town loses. He plays a lot of mafia, right? One more for the history books.

Okay, I'm actually pretty sold on it. Jamie is not scum.

It was his bd D1. He wasn't around EOD. Maybe he thought Demon wagon wouldn't last but if it does - towncred.

[kgray]

Let me ask you this, then, since I'm towning on you...if it might be the wrong play to axe Jamie today who'd be a better replacement? Still Maniac or one of Macca/RDR/Yav? Hold off on answering that. I'd like to see if I can look at VCA to see who might generate more info. If I can't come up with it you'll know when I raise the white flag.

You shouldn't vote people based on who generates more info, you should vote the people you scumread. Why would it be the wrong play to axe Jamie today? Do you think he's town?

The other really problematic thing about HB's post here is he is now hedging against Jamie, who he is currently voting!!! and is also now saying, "Oh, maybe we do DK yav?" who he just made three big posts defending as town!!!

Yeah he's definitely scrambling to find a place for his vote. I know that can be town uncertainty but most of his justifications are based on reasons that I don't think come from a towny mindset: reads of dead players, info votes, who is a viable wagon.

And I know *this* is super hedgy, but as scummy as I think this is from Hamilton, he has done this as town also. It makes it very difficult to read him. My bigger issue with him is not his hedging or his uncertainty, but D1 voting. I think it's very possible that he saw ghug and me vote brain and thought the wagon would take off and save Demon. The reason he gave for that vote was just that he got townier vibes from ghug and me? And then Demon picking kak as his counter wagon over Hamilton is pretty big scumpoints for Hamilton.

[damo666]

Can you give me the Cliff Notes here? What makes you scumread Jamie overall?

I wish I could give you a hard, well-defined reason. What you read from me is exactly where my brain keeps going...back and forth. Hardly anything logical; it's all based on gut-reads where I don't like something that I read, but then I do like something I read.

Also, we know that Hamilton is on Jamie even though he has made cases for both town-Jamie and scum-Jamie and admits that he is uncertain. He was also uncertain about celaph.

Sorry if I am tunneling, but there is a good case for Ham to be scum here.

Did you all see how much effort HB put into town-reading yavu? But the same level of effort is not expended to scum-read Jamie or celaph, who he has voted for.

Very, very scummy of HB.

There are some things about HB that are bringing me around to maybe townreading him; it's a very difficult sort. But I would not at all be surprised if Hamilton is scum.

I've been wavering a bit on HB but I cannot make any Mafteam containg him work. Give me any Mafia team including HB and I'll explain why I think it's wrong.

[damo666]

If I discard thsoe I deem to be town for one reason another and I discard certain pairs as they don't make sense as scumpartners I am amazingly only left with one possible scumteam.

I am happy to announce the scumteam are:

Jamie
Macca
rdr
yav

Anyone apart from darg and I could be ww.

Prove me wrong.

Damo can you walk me through your thought process here on how you're eliminating people? At least for Maniac given that he's the top wagon at the moment.

See my reads post for some elims. Since then I've added kgray to my list of nonmaf after a reexamination of EOD1 voting.

The short answer re Maniac is there aren't enough people to be in a team with him. I cannot see him with Jamie, HB or Yav.