MAFIA 66: The Battle for Olympus - Game Thread [hidden]

[brainbomb]

I dont wanna pick on you celaph but if you are town that might be the worst reads list ive ever seen

[Hamilton Brian]

But my vote is on him for a reason.

You're probably asleep right now but did you explain your reasoning? Wondering if it's something spelled out explicitly or if it's something I'll struggle to infer.

Anyone else want to answer for Worcej?

[dargorygel]

@celaph... what do you mean by referring to Jamie as remarkably forgettable? Could you comment on (what has been mentioned a NUMBER of times) an erratic involvment? What about his RB? What about his defense under a bit of pressure? What about his frustration with me? He has made some pretty markable comments/posts. Do you null him in spite of them? Or didn't they register?

[brainbomb]

Bona — As kgray has noted, he’s been attentive and precise. He’s asked good questions and challenged people well. He was on the right wagon D1. My only concern with him is how simple his susses and reads have been. D1 it felt that he townread the people that agreed with him and/or criticized brain. D2 he’s made his vote today about clearing me.

what were some good questions bona asked?

[dargorygel]

I dont wanna pick on you celaph but if you are town that might be the worst reads list ive ever seen

Is it a better reads list if he is scum?

[brainbomb]

I dont wanna pick on you celaph but if you are town that might be the worst reads list ive ever seen

Is it a better reads list if he is scum?

yea because it does a great job of being hard to read by lack of indentations, its randomly structured, gives all his scumleans a lack of explanation and hedges them, and structurally creates a ton of wifom on things like his macca - yav read. the macca and yav reads being joined forces you to post flip wonder if its v-v, s-s, or v-s

[brainbomb]

If anyone has free time and wants to earn town brownie points go reread m64 and see if celaph did any reads lists and compare it to m65 and see if he did reads list. verify any structural abnormalities and compare it to this

[Hamilton Brian]

Maniac with the post I wish I could write. viewtopic.php?p=235907#p235907

I don't know; others of you will have the meta. Is this something Maniac does as scum? I need to reread it again but it reads pretty well, especially the VCA.

[brainbomb]

I think macca, yav, chaqa, and flum look highly sus from his list.

[brainbomb]

how could you look at flum and think yea thats natural... yea

[dargorygel]

I don't have time for analysis... but the data is not huge.
Here are the two 'lists' celaph gave in M64:
THE FIRST LIST
In terms of reads:
Likely town: you (kgray) and Bob.
Lean town: Bona, Donny, bb, and ghug. Donny is the person on this list who I remember the least of, but reading his iso he has asked a lot of good questions. This night he has done a better job turning those questions into statements which I like and hope to see more of.
Lean town/don't want to kill yet: Bunny, Damo, and Vecna. I've separated these out because while I lean them town for now, the value of the reasons will fall off later on. Vecna is here because of the value of town Vecna and I think his behavior tonight shows confidence. Bunny and Damo are the town non-VT claims. This gives them some credit, but given the set-up far less than it would in previous games.
Shade town: HR.
Null: Most everyone else. Of people of note, I think Jasnah is worth watching because she has been insightful on some points though her behavior is generally anti-town.
Shade scum: Maniac and Ezio for their poorly justified votes at the end. Jasnah and Damo also fit that description, but I think Jasnah has contributed slightly more than either of them and damo has claimed non-VT.

I've been writing and haven't actually read the thread since my last message. I just refreshed the votes and saw that a lot has changed. Figured it was better to send this now before I catch back up. I want to vote for someone out of Ezio, damo, Macca, Maniac, and emc. With those first two being more preferred than the rest.

Ezio has showed a lot more competence this day, but it feels like he is hiding behind it to make his plays. A lot of his work seems to be focused on theoretical arguments about how scum should be playing while not seeming to apply those to his reads. For example, he talks about how viewtopic.php?p=215218#p215218 (scum) should be hunting, yet isn't voting for someone who is hunting. When viewtopic.php?p=216212#p216212 (talking) about my play the line "(and this early in the game chance has it he's town)" actually touches very little on anything that has been said. What does he think of the arguments?

The SECOND LIST
Regarding Damo, I disagree with kgray's viewtopic.php?p=216224#p216224 (characterization) of Damo as one whose town votes are all over the place. Looking at last game I think Damo's votes were actually relatively easy to follow if sometimes misplaced. He viewtopic.php?p=203760#p203760 (voted) Bozo after Bozo had done annoyingly changed the colors of the text in his messages. He viewtopic.php?p=204056#p204056 (voted) Maniac because he has said he was going to follow weird rules in a rigid and scummy way. D2 he webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=205370#p205370 (voted) me viewtopic.php?p=205534#p205534 (because) RHK had scumread me D1 and then died D1. Not only were his votes justified, but they tracked the flow of conversation well and in a way that I see less here.

Macca hasn't seriously dug into any of the things that they have been commenting on. They've asked some decent questions and posted immediate reactions to what's happening, but it hasn't really manifested itself as decent reads. The viewtopic.php?p=215376#p215376 (one) reads list they have posted has been rather superficial and mirrored existing sentiments heavily.

I've talked a fair amount about why I think Maniac may be scum, but I think that he's moved more towards the Maniac I remember today and has thus slid towards null. I don't entirely disagree with Ezio's viewtopic.php?p=216167#p216167 (argument) that Maniac wouldn't target kgray here, but it seems to be based on very little without backing in scum Maniac games.

EMC feels like a particularly meh wagon. There is nothing to like, but there is also nothing to hate. @vecna, you've had good reads on emc the past two games, what are your thoughts now?

I've heard some people throw out Jasnah's name as a wagon option. I'm not particularly a fan of this. She has certainly been less insightful today and overall not explained her reads, but she was insightful D1 and her behavior today I think is well explained by her own viewtopic.php?p=215331#p215331 (statement) that she was going to be inactive today.

[brainbomb]

Yea so basically as scum, celaph just slaps paint on a hogs ass and lets it loose into the thread to squeal and roll around in the muck

[Hamilton Brian]

I like the idea of keeping maniac alive as a meatwad for the wolfy wolf

Is this you baiting the werewolf?

[dargorygel]

Yea so basically as scum, celaph just slaps paint on a hogs ass and lets it loose into the thread to squeal and roll around in the muck

I looked at the next game, when he was town... and it did not look much different, tbh.

[brainbomb]

I like the idea of keeping maniac alive as a meatwad for the wolfy wolf

Is this you baiting the werewolf?

im a myriad of unexpected possibilities. and yes.

come find me mister or mrs or they wolf

[brainbomb]

Yea so basically as scum, celaph just slaps paint on a hogs ass and lets it loose into the thread to squeal and roll around in the muck

I looked at the next game, when he was town... and it did not look much different, tbh.

the devil is in the small details, the links, the organized structure, the analysis of actual situations and moments.

as scum the reads are more like felt really like they were asking questions.

[Jamiet99uk]

Surely scumManiac would have claimed missingPR rather than VT?

No because look, WIFOM!

Perhaps Town RBer should say who they role blocked. If they roleblocked Jamie that gets rid of option i) above

Yes but it exposes a PR and there is a Werewolf. I think this is a bad strategy.

[brainbomb]

we have a cop
we have a vt

lets keep the werewolfs dinner options at a manageable minimum folks

[Jamiet99uk]

Null:
Jamie — Remarkably forgettable.

Forgettable? Moi?

I am wounded.

Especially after I was defending you. And haven't you seen all my posts about Dargorygel and Maniac? Do I need to type in ALL CAPS to make you read what I post?

Goodness me.

"Forgettable" indeed.

[dargorygel]

Yea so basically as scum, celaph just slaps paint on a hogs ass and lets it loose into the thread to squeal and roll around in the muck

I looked at the next game, when he was town... and it did not look much different, tbh.

the devil is in the small details, the links, the organized structure, the analysis of actual situations and moments.

as scum the reads are more like felt really like they were asking questions.

I agree, brain.
But we also have a danger of confbias.
Here is a sampling of two of his reads from the town game:
Updated reads list
NUMBER 1
Macca — Conftown
Bona — All but conftown. Especially given that the GM confirmed that someone got bad information after Bona claimed it.
Jamiet99uk — Uncc’d PR. More likely to be lying than Bona, though that's still very likely. Bad kill for the foreseeable future.
rdr — His thoughts this game have aligned especially well with mine and has felt all around genuine. Very likely town.
Vecna — I think that Vecna’s approach to solving this game has been very towny even if it felt off to me at a few points. I shared some of rd.’s paranoia about Vecna Bunny interactions being SvS, but my fears have been mostly relaxed on reread of them. Particularly the way that Vecna forced Bunny to stay in the conversations as he did here. I also like the way that he has been suspicious of me today, feels natural. Likely town and very likely not mafia. 
BobMcBob — I liked the way that he handled the Bunny shot. ##Call GM: The Gunman learns of their kill’s role by pm, not through the scum QT, correct? Also, I doubt that Bob calls attention to the Bunny Vecna interaction like he did if he was afraid that Bunny was going to die because of it. Probably town and likely not mafia if scum don’t immediately learn gunman results.
ghug — His posting style has been considerably different this game, though that’s probably not alignment indicative. I feel like he has been sharp at times, particularly earlier on, but I get the feeling that scum ghug could pull this off. I like how he handled Jamie’s PR status and claim. He didn’t have a ton of interactions with Bunny and he had nothing that felt particularly scummy nor particularly clearing. Lean town.
damo/worcej — I feel like both had incredibly lackluster D1-N2s and have done well this D3. Damo I think having the worse D1-N2 and the better D3 of the two. Perhaps there is scum here feeling a need to pick it up, but it hasn’t felt forced so far. Lean town (but I feel better about damo than worcej).
————— I want to kill below this line ——————
Foxcastle — I get why Fox’s behavior is suspicious, but on reread I don’t get the feeling that Bunny and Fox were teammates; he had no hesitation when it came to voting him. Though he did ultimately join lfischl’s wagon so maybe he was just distancing. Or maybe this is our alien. Null.
Maniac — So little content here. That said, nothing that makes me think definitely scum. Mostly just here by PoE. The one thing that draws my eye is that Maniac’s logic has been easier to follow than I remember. Like his Foxcastle sus D2 follows directly from a question directed at him N1. I’m not sure if this behavior is alignment indicative, but I like it. Null.
Brainbomb — I had bb down as null to town lean before today, but I feel like he’s been the opposite of Damo and worcej and his posts today are trash. He feels angry and is lacking the sharpness that I liked from him earlier with his dealing of Jamie for example. Null to scumlean.
Thamrick — Not a sexy wagon by any means, but I understand why it’s here. No reason to townread him and the GM mistake seems to look bad for him. I feel bad for him dying this way, but I can’t really imagine that even as town he will be helping us solve. Scumlean.

##vote Tham

NUMBER 2
TOWNIER END

Jamie -- If he's somehow scum then we just concede that the luck was not in our favor and try to win M66. Treat him like conf town.

rdr -- I've been saying this since the beginning, but I'm not getting any scum vibes from this man. Couple this with being almost conf non-alien (conf assuming Vecna is telling the truth which I think is the case) makes him a very bad kill in the coming days.

ghug -- If this is ghug's scum game then it's a really clean scum game. I think he has picked up on the right details and argued over the right points in a way that feels very natural and genuine. For examples, see how he worked around Jamie's PR status, how he has challenged Vecna, and how he has handled my infected status.

Bob -- I could see this slot being scum (more likely alien imo), but if so then kudos to him for the confidence that he has played with. I willingness to behave like that D1 and absorb the pressure unnecessarily. The lack of hesitation in shooting Bunny. I also townread the hell out of his activity pattern. He feels the right mixture of please how we've preformed against scum and lost in dealing with the alien.

Vecna -- Vecna has played like a town person probably playing a townier game that both Bob and ghug. But at times something feels just not quite right with how he's acting. I think both ghug and rdr have done a better job than I at highlighting why that is at various times. Treat him as a town, but carefully. Be extra careful if Fox flips scum.

Worcej -- Total gut read here. I'll hedge here so I don't look like a fool if I'm wrong, but I like Worcej here.

Fox -- He strikes me as sharp, yet struggles to convert that sharpness into towny-ness. His early analysis of the early wagon was poor. The way he handled the GM "slip" with his item felt awkward. The person he reminds me most of is Donny from M63 who ended up town so I might be wrong here.

Maniac -- I hate that I'm doing this, but to some extent I'm scumreading Maniac's towniness. I really hope that I'm wrong because that would show change to his town game that I really like, but he's caught my attention in positive ways that remind me of our time as alien together. For example, I think his current read of the situation is decent, but I just worry that it is coming from a place of knowledge.

Damo -- He is doing a mixture of things that feel towny and feel really scummy. He doesn't really feel mafia-y so I'm guessing that this is our alien, but I don't have huge confidence in my ability to read him.

SCUMMIER END