Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

New players can go here for helpful advice and to sign up for our mentor program, or if you're a veteran help answer questions.
Forum rules
This is an area for new members or members looking for help with the site or Diplomacy. Off topic threads and replies will be moved to the appropriate category.
Message
Author
jasnah
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:13 pm
Karma: 304

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#21 Post by jasnah » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:40 pm

CSteinhardt wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm
jasnah wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:04 pm
You are incorrectly identifying what is problematic about your example; it's not the use of the draw vote but the intentional and prior arrangement of several players outside of game to collaborate. It would be equally problematic were you to make this agreement with several others that a particular fake convoy pattern through enemy fleets signals you should work together, that doesn't mean convoying through enemy fleets should be banned. If you cared about making a coherent post instead of just writing lazy fallacies you assume people are too stupid to see, you would have thought of this.
OK. So, what you're saying is that the real problem would be that this group of people would have a common prior understanding and be able to communicate using draw votes in future games. Sounds reasonable.

So, if, for example, somebody decided to start a forum discussion which would encourage regular gunboat players on this website to come to agreements about what a draw vote should "mean", in your view that would be an attempt to cheat, correct? How would you recommend punishing participants in such a discussion?
That happens frequently and is called establishing a meta. For example, generally players in this website take writing support hold another player's units to mean asking for an alliance. Maybe we should ban all the players who use this, clearly, it's an outside game influence of gunboat mechanics.

In normal circumstances I would agree to disagree but you somehow manage to write in a miserable and pedantic way filling up several paragraphs despite having little to no substance to your argument.
3

Claesar
Posts: 1932
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1450

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#22 Post by Claesar » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:22 pm

Wusti wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:42 pm
That's about as ridiculous a thing as I've ever seen a mod post. Re-read what you just typed.

If people don't want it to be used as a tool - then they'll make HDV games.
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's allowed. Like murder, mr. Anarchist.
4

Chaqa
Bronze Donator
Bronze Donator
Posts: 7640
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
Location: Allentown, PA, USA
Karma: 4456

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#23 Post by Chaqa » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:26 pm

nesdunk14 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:27 am
Using the votes to communicate in gunboat is against site rules.
This isn't actually true I think. The pause vote isn't to be used that way, but it is very normal in Gunboat for those with draw votes entered to team up to stop the holdouts. I don't think it's strictly against the rules, and if it is, it's never been enforced/policed, in my many hundreds of games of experience.
3

dargorygel
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 4743
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:55 pm
Location: Over the rainbow
Karma: 4976
Contact:

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#24 Post by dargorygel » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:29 am

jasnah wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:40 pm
CSteinhardt wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm
jasnah wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:04 pm
You are incorrectly identifying what is problematic about your example; it's not the use of the draw vote but the intentional and prior arrangement of several players outside of game to collaborate. It would be equally problematic were you to make this agreement with several others that a particular fake convoy pattern through enemy fleets signals you should work together, that doesn't mean convoying through enemy fleets should be banned. If you cared about making a coherent post instead of just writing lazy fallacies you assume people are too stupid to see, you would have thought of this.
OK. So, what you're saying is that the real problem would be that this group of people would have a common prior understanding and be able to communicate using draw votes in future games. Sounds reasonable.

So, if, for example, somebody decided to start a forum discussion which would encourage regular gunboat players on this website to come to agreements about what a draw vote should "mean", in your view that would be an attempt to cheat, correct? How would you recommend punishing participants in such a discussion?
That happens frequently and is called establishing a meta. For example, generally players in this website take writing support hold another player's units to mean asking for an alliance. Maybe we should ban all the players who use this, clearly, it's an outside game influence of gunboat mechanics.

In normal circumstances I would agree to disagree but you somehow manage to write in a miserable and pedantic way filling up several paragraphs despite having little to no substance to your argument.
It's like bridge (which oddly is the second bridge reference I've made on this site today, even though I haven't 'bridged' in decades...) In bridge, communicating to your partner (or your opponents) about what exactly is in your hand is illegal, bad form, bad cricket, and icky. But there are well established ways to hint. Hints, of course, are just that... hints. It takes deduction, guessing, induction, and often reading such hints end up with people being wrong.

That's not cheating. It's also why I am not an avid gunboater. I don't know the conventions. Gunboat with people is, of course, different than gunboat with bots. As it should be.
2

Wusti
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 pm
Karma: 152

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#25 Post by Wusti » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:40 am

Claesar wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:22 pm
Wusti wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:42 pm
That's about as ridiculous a thing as I've ever seen a mod post. Re-read what you just typed.

If people don't want it to be used as a tool - then they'll make HDV games.
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's allowed. Like murder, mr. Anarchist.
Why I think that's about the nicest thing you've ever called me Claesar. :lol:

However you haven't addressed the core of the issue here: why is using a Draw vote, and how is it distinguished from a support hold for example, dastardly cheating behavior to be outlawed?

CStein's straw men are hilarious, but also easily coded to prevent if the use of them for this method was widespread.

Also Big Brother, there are laws which state Murder is illegal - but by your own admission there is no rule surrounding the specific use or misuse of the Draw button. So you analogy fails. A for effort though :-D
2

jmo1121109
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1074
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:20 pm
Karma: 2854
Contact:

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#26 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:51 am

Using the Pause or Cancel buttons as signals to other players is violating the press rules. For example, voting pause to signal the desire for a smaller draw is not allowed. If you need a pause in a gunboat game contact the moderators (see below for the contact details) and explain why.
Nothing about Draw vote, hence, no rule against it. Vote draw whenever you want, and if you don't want to worry about what it means, join hidden draw games.

Hope this clears it up!
8

Claesar
Posts: 1932
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1450

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#27 Post by Claesar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:23 am

Thanks, I was partly wrong!
1

Claesar
Posts: 1932
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1450

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#28 Post by Claesar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:26 am

Wusti wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:40 am
Why I think that's about the nicest thing you've ever called me Claesar.

...
I don't recall calling you anything (in public) before, so it would simultaneously be the nicest and the worst thing.
1

Wusti
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 pm
Karma: 152

Re: Communicating with draw & cancel button in gunboat

#29 Post by Wusti » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:47 am

Claesar wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:26 am
Wusti wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:40 am
Why I think that's about the nicest thing you've ever called me Claesar.

...
I don't recall calling you anything (in public) before, so it would simultaneously be the nicest and the worst thing.
Haha we both know you've called me much worse!!!
1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests