Mafia 1016: America's Past-Crime [HIDDEN]

[celaph]

also @celaph
What went wrong in the room's (and yours) analysis of damo?

As I pointed out before the EoD, I thought that the Damo vote was far more of one based on activity than actual actions. Ignoring the last 20 minutes, his last post came over 6 hours before EoD. At that point the wagons were Jamie 3, Bozo 1, Durga 1, Vecna 1. I'm fine with him having a joke vote at that point.

Ideally he would have come back sooner than 20 minutes before EoD, but especially with the 24 hour day format he likely didn't have time and by the time he was back he was a major wagon because of it.

I voted him because I thought he was scummier than Durga, but not by much and I think Bozo was scummier than them both.

[Bonatogether]

You summarized it pretty well. I had to spend time (help with homework, make dinner, play a board game, etc) with family, so I didn't check the game for around 3 hours. I was 5 or 6 pages behind and I was the only non voter. I checked the bot and wagons are Durga, Bozo and Damo. On the 3 I decide to vote Damo more as a placeholder while I catch up.

After catching up I thought Damo's reaction to pressure was towny and also found weird how Bozo wagon just died with both Vecna and Bona jumping to Damo as soon as I voted. I told I might move to Bozo to see if Vecna and Bona were willing to do the same. They just ignored it.

##vote Bona

I wasn't around for EoD - I only showed up several minutes after.

Were you on a walk by any change?

No, I was working on chemistry homework at that time and only checking in only so often

[celaph]

@celaph
On page 23 you changed from avid anti-jamie to a jamiefan. Would you explain that thought process? Thanks

I explained my thought process to kgray in a recent post, but if you have questions about that feel free to ask.

[lfischl]

Celaph what are your thoughts on kgray and Durga?

[celaph]

Fucking answer my questions then.

I've addressed the one about whether I accused you of having no reason for your Damo vote, or just a really weak, thin reason (it was the latter).

I see a question about why I didn't hassle other people for naked voting. I can get to that, sure.

What else was there?

You're really going to stand behind your claim that damo's vote was a really weak, thin reason for me to vote him?

You're not going to admit that your case is based on me not questioning him, but that I *did* in fact question him?

You're not going to question Vecna for also saving Durga, when apparently you think she and I are partners because I saved her, but Vecna also saved her?

Yes, Damo's vote was a weak reason. It was my reason too, but I have no delusions that my reason was particularly strong. Is sitting on a joke vote until 20 minutes before EoD scummy? Yes. Is it a particularly strong reason when it can also be explained by his activity? No.

[celaph]

I think meta reads doesn´t work most of the time, at least with good or experienced players. I try to not base any vote only on meta.

You played in a way as scum that made you got a lot of heat early last game, why you would play again as scum the same way in the next game? You can have some meta things that you can´t really fake after a lot of games, but the obvious things are easily fakeable.

As for why I would play in a similar way again, no one really pushed me until there was a guilty cop scan.

But I think you were being townread not because your behavior was pro-town, but because you were being so brazen that we all thought "no scum would ever act this way". Now that we know that you might act that way as scum you would get many fewer town points for doing it again.

[rdrivera2005]

This post sequence from Celaph made me think he is pretty townie.

[celaph]

Celaph what are your thoughts on kgray and Durga?

The latter I don't have many thoughts on. She hasn't said or done much of note and most of the talk should be related to how people have interacted with and around her. There is nothing to really scum read her for except the entire lack of things to townread her for.

I think that kgray is acting in a pro-town way, though something feels slightly off. I don't think that Jamie's argument is entirely factually correct as she has pointed out, but I think that there is a core of truth to it. That said, maybe I'm just reacting negatively to her scumread of me which I have to think through.

Regarding their interactions I think that they are less alignment indicative than people are making out. Kgray will certainly look worse if Durga flips scum, but if this is scum kgray, then she is doing this because she thinks that town kgray would as well.

[kgray]

I wasn't just the only one really talking about bussing, I was the only one (before you) talking about the implications for Jamie in general. Makes me think that Jamie isn't scum with Durga, kgray, or Bona. So unless you're the scum in us 5, I think Jamie is town.

Why can't any of us be scum with Jamie, but Vecna can?

When BB flipped we got info that 5 of us were connected by two facts: there was one scum between us and we all voted Jamie. The three of you focused almost entirely on the fact that there was one scum between us giving no attention to the latter fact. I think if one of you was scum bussing then you would both be more aware of the latter fact and more inclined to draw attention to the fact that scum voted for Jamie. Obviously Vecna acted differently from you all on that front which is why I excluded him.

We know there's *at least* one scum among us, and I disagree that someone who bussed Jamie would be more inclined to draw attention to that fact. But okay.

[celaph]

No

I wasn't asking you but why?

Scum don't group that brazenly

Does your opinion on the matter change given that they have a day chat?

[kgray]

Why Bona? Do you think he's anything like he was last game?

Do you expect scum Bona to play like last game?

I think he showed enough self-awareness then that I would suspect he would know to change up his style.

I wouldn't expect the exact same style, no. But I also wouldn't expect him to be able to completely replicate his town game, and I think this is really similar to how he was as town.

[kgray]

Durgas flip is probably one that will give the most answers (and look pretty bad on me if it does turn out to be the scum on the list lol).

I mean, same.

Celaph is the one ill probably gun for personally. Especially if ive been wrong about Jamiet - the way he voted there, and the weird way he pushed Jamiet for the comments just felt odd

I think the way he backed off of his scumread of Jamie now seems kind of odd. Like the whole scumread wasn't based on much in the first place, and he was very quick to accept Jamie's defense like he knew Jamie was actually town?

Jamie's defense against me hinged on the idea that I had misinterpreted his statements. If I had properly interpreted his statements I think it is unlikely that Jamie defends himself that way as he would know the basis of his argument is lies. Additionally I think the tone of his defense felt honest, that he was genuinely annoyed that I had misunderstood him.

As such, I think that it was reasonable to conclude that I had misinterpreted Jamie whether he was scum or town. As such, I no longer saw the basis of my scumread as scum indicative, but rather NAI. It made no sense to keep my vote on him after I moved him back to null so I unvoted.

I don't know, something about this feels really weird to me. You explicitly said when you voted for him that it wasn't *just* because you didn't get his joke, and when I asked you more about your read of him you said you weren't a fan of him for reasons you commented on (I can't find any besides the joke thing?) and for reasons others commented on, but you didn't specify which those were at the time. Shortly after you did give some reasons, which seem okay to me, but they still feel secondary to the joke thing.

And when you unvoted you said you liked his defense, when his defense was mostly just "you didn't understand that I was mocking Vecna." And I'm probably tunneling at this point but you also avoided his question about giving him a reason to scumread someone besides Durga. Maybe that's just because you didn't have a stronger scumread, but it's rubbing me the wrong way.

It just feels like your scumread of him wasn't based on much, and you realized it didn't hold up, so you dropped it. Which... I guess doesn't have to be scummy actually?

Who do you scumread now?

[dargorygel]

Mafia Day QT
Durga: pass the cookies. I need protein.
Celaph: What? There are no proteins in cookies!
Durga: In Canada, there are. Bacon is an ingredient.
Celaph: ….
Durga: Nice answers by the way. You fooled rdrivera.
Rdrivera: what? I’m curling my hair.
Kgray: It looks nice, too! Wait… aren’t I your spokesperson? Ahem… “What? I’m curling my hair.”
Bonatogether: Did that work to get pressure off me?

The four look at each other… count on their fingers… “GHUG! HOW MANY OF US DID YOU PUT IN HERE???”

[kgray]

Jumping onto one of the main wagons at EoD without presenting a case isn't the same as making a naked vote to start a wagon which you'd later push over the cliff, in any case.

You're right, it's actually way scummier.

[Jamiet99uk]

Jumping onto one of the main wagons at EoD without presenting a case isn't the same as making a naked vote to start a wagon which you'd later push over the cliff, in any case.

You're right, it's actually way scummier.

So, you scumread Vecna and Bona for doing it?

[kgray]

I've addressed the one about whether I accused you of having no reason for your Damo vote, or just a really weak, thin reason (it was the latter).

I see a question about why I didn't hassle other people for naked voting. I can get to that, sure.

What else was there?

You're really going to stand behind your claim that damo's vote was a really weak, thin reason for me to vote him?

You're not going to admit that your case is based on me not questioning him, but that I *did* in fact question him?

You're not going to question Vecna for also saving Durga, when apparently you think she and I are partners because I saved her, but Vecna also saved her?

Yes, Damo's vote was a weak reason. It was my reason too, but I have no delusions that my reason was particularly strong. Is sitting on a joke vote until 20 minutes before EoD scummy? Yes. Is it a particularly strong reason when it can also be explained by his activity? No.

Nah I refuse to accept this lol. Voting someone because they made a joke vote, left it there all day, ignored requests to explain their reads, and then came up with some convenient-sounding reasons to justify that vote at EOD when they become the counterwagon to that vote is totally valid. Obviously it was wrong, and I don't think it was a "strong" reason. But it wasn't a really weak, thin reason like Jamie keeps insisting.

[kgray]

This post sequence from Celaph made me think he is pretty townie.

What about it makes you think he's towny and can you please elaborate more on your Bona scumread?

[kgray]

Celaph what are your thoughts on kgray and Durga?

The latter I don't have many thoughts on. She hasn't said or done much of note and most of the talk should be related to how people have interacted with and around her. There is nothing to really scum read her for except the entire lack of things to townread her for.

I think that kgray is acting in a pro-town way, though something feels slightly off. I don't think that Jamie's argument is entirely factually correct as she has pointed out, but I think that there is a core of truth to it. That said, maybe I'm just reacting negatively to her scumread of me which I have to think through.

Regarding their interactions I think that they are less alignment indicative than people are making out. Kgray will certainly look worse if Durga flips scum, but if this is scum kgray, then she is doing this because she thinks that town kgray would as well.

Oh I love your last point. You get townpoints for that. Do you think it's something town me would do?

[kgray]

Jumping onto one of the main wagons at EoD without presenting a case isn't the same as making a naked vote to start a wagon which you'd later push over the cliff, in any case.

You're right, it's actually way scummier.

So, you scumread Vecna and Bona for doing it?

No, because townies do scummy things all the time and I townread them for other reasons. But joining an existing wagon without a "good" reason is objectively scummier than starting a wagon without a "good" reason, in my opinion.

[Jamiet99uk]

You're right, it's actually way scummier.

So, you scumread Vecna and Bona for doing it?

No, because townies do scummy things all the time and I townread them for other reasons. But joining an existing wagon without a "good" reason is objectively scummier than starting a wagon without a "good" reason, in my opinion.

Would you care to elaborate on why you hold this opinion?