Mafia 1016: America's Past-Crime [HIDDEN]

[rdrivera2005]

There is no basis for claiming that my conversation with Vecna was S v S. Have you checked any of my interactions with Bob or Macca last game? None of them resemble anything this game.

I expect you to be smart enought to not play two games in a row as scum in the same way. This is pure WIFOM.

If people could change their play that easily, meta reads wouldn't work

I think meta reads doesn´t work most of the time, at least with good or experienced players. I try to not base any vote only on meta.

You played in a way as scum that made you got a lot of heat early last game, why you would play again as scum the same way in the next game? You can have some meta things that you can´t really fake after a lot of games, but the obvious things are easily fakeable.

[kgray]

Jamiet, I know my scumreads at times arent the best, but my townreads are generally pretty stellar once im convinced, yes?

Kgray is town.

And her earlier statement that she doesnt do charges onto town as scum is completely accurate as well. In her games as scum she stuck with general sentiment quite well when voting townies, and only lead charges on her teammates (see, summit in that one game, and later Chaqa).

How many times has Kgray been scum? Is it more than once?

Do people not change over time, or does the passage of history stand eternally still for you in this game, as it does in your wardrobe?

I've been scum 3 times: M1011, M1015, and M61. You were the GM for the first one, and townread me in the other two - partially because I didn't do absurd things to draw attention to myself, like blatantly save someone and lead the daykill on a random townie who wasn't a wagon.

Vecna, the time I lead the kill on summit I was town and legitimately caught him.

[kgray]

kgray and durga are looking a wee bit better.
My list is changing.

If kgray and durga can wait... bona is now next for me. Mostly due to the vecna/bona exchange. Which is interesting because vecna is ALSO on the list, eh? Might the bona/vecna thing be s v s?

Here is my present list
durga>kgray>bona>cel>vecna

So I should do this
##VOTE DURGA

There is no basis for claiming that my conversation with Vecna was S v S. Have you checked any of my interactions with Bob or Macca last game? None of them resemble anything this game.

I expect you to be smart enought to not play two games in a row as scum in the same way. This is pure WIFOM.

Do you scumread him for anything else besides how he followed you to damo from bozo?

[kgray]

I am 100% guaranteed town © so you don´t have to worry with me.

Oh thank god I don't have to sort this slot anymore.

[kgray]

So let me address Kgray asking me "Why are you not questioning other people's naked votes?"

The only other naked votes on D1 that I can remember were:

- Vecna voting for me, which he did justify before and after.

- Brainbomb voting for Bozo. This happened after I went offline for the evening. Brainbomb is now dead and was town.

So there's your answer.

Why are you, Kgray, trying to diminsh my case by implying there were lots of other naked votes? Because I don't think there were.

You can´t remember Vecna and Bona naked votes on Damo? Interesting.

Pretty frustrating how a huge part of his scumread of me is how *I* got damo killed, and he ignores these kinds of things.

[BunnyGo]

Official Vote Count with a little over 6 hours in the day:

Durga (6) Bonatogether Vecna Maniac bozotheclown Jamiet99uk lfischl
celaph (2) kgray dargorygel
Bonatogether (1) rdrivera2005

celaph and Durga have yet to make a legal vote.

Durga is on the block to be pelted by balls.

[celaph]

Its interesting that Celaph is the only person (besides me) that has made any mention of Jamiet potentially being bussed

I wasn't just the only one really talking about bussing, I was the only one (before you) talking about the implications for Jamie in general. Makes me think that Jamie isn't scum with Durga, kgray, or Bona. So unless you're the scum in us 5, I think Jamie is town.

Why can't any of us be scum with Jamie, but Vecna can?

When BB flipped we got info that 5 of us were connected by two facts: there was one scum between us and we all voted Jamie. The three of you focused almost entirely on the fact that there was one scum between us giving no attention to the latter fact. I think if one of you was scum bussing then you would both be more aware of the latter fact and more inclined to draw attention to the fact that scum voted for Jamie. Obviously Vecna acted differently from you all on that front which is why I excluded him.

[celaph]

@rdr can you talk a bit more about your thought process in the last hour of the day?

With roughly an hour to go you voted Damo. The only comment you made previously regarding him is that you thought Damo was laying low. Is that why you voted him? Your only comments after catching up expressed concern with the way that the Damo wagon formed yet you left your vote there seemingly content.

With roughly 4 minutes to go you expressed in interest in moving your vote to from Damo to Bozo if others were interested too. Where did that desire for a bozo wagon come from? He was a viable wagon an hour before EoD when you first voted Damo. He was still viable though less so when you commented about the formation of Damo's wagon. And he had 3 votes on him for over 20 minutes before you expressed interest in voting him.

You summarized it pretty well. I had to spend time (help with homework, make dinner, play a board game, etc) with family, so I didn't check the game for around 3 hours. I was 5 or 6 pages behind and I was the only non voter. I checked the bot and wagons are Durga, Bozo and Damo. On the 3 I decide to vote Damo more as a placeholder while I catch up.

After catching up I thought Damo's reaction to pressure was towny and also found weird how Bozo wagon just died with both Vecna and Bona jumping to Damo as soon as I voted. I told I might move to Bozo to see if Vecna and Bona were willing to do the same. They just ignored it.

##vote Bona

Why Bona? Do you think he's anything like he was last game?

Do you expect scum Bona to play like last game?

I think he showed enough self-awareness then that I would suspect he would know to change up his style.

[Vecna]

Hope a bunch of you are playing in the British tour dipgames this weekend btw

[celaph]

Durgas flip is probably one that will give the most answers (and look pretty bad on me if it does turn out to be the scum on the list lol).

I mean, same.

Celaph is the one ill probably gun for personally. Especially if ive been wrong about Jamiet - the way he voted there, and the weird way he pushed Jamiet for the comments just felt odd

I think the way he backed off of his scumread of Jamie now seems kind of odd. Like the whole scumread wasn't based on much in the first place, and he was very quick to accept Jamie's defense like he knew Jamie was actually town?

Jamie's defense against me hinged on the idea that I had misinterpreted his statements. If I had properly interpreted his statements I think it is unlikely that Jamie defends himself that way as he would know the basis of his argument is lies. Additionally I think the tone of his defense felt honest, that he was genuinely annoyed that I had misunderstood him.

As such, I think that it was reasonable to conclude that I had misinterpreted Jamie whether he was scum or town. As such, I no longer saw the basis of my scumread as scum indicative, but rather NAI. It made no sense to keep my vote on him after I moved him back to null so I unvoted.

[Jamiet99uk]

So let me address Kgray asking me "Why are you not questioning other people's naked votes?"

The only other naked votes on D1 that I can remember were:

- Vecna voting for me, which he did justify before and after.

- Brainbomb voting for Bozo. This happened after I went offline for the evening. Brainbomb is now dead and was town.

So there's your answer.

Why are you, Kgray, trying to diminsh my case by implying there were lots of other naked votes? Because I don't think there were.

You can´t remember Vecna and Bona naked votes on Damo? Interesting.

I wasn't on at EoD1. I thought that was abundantly clear.

[Jamiet99uk]

Jumping onto one of the main wagons at EoD without presenting a case isn't the same as making a naked vote to start a wagon which you'd later push over the cliff, in any case.

[celaph]

Ultimately I think bb's question says very little about the 5 of us that were voting Jamie. We're sitting at 8 town 3 scum giving us two miskills before kilo. I agree with lfischl's comment that scum is unlikely to kill any of us. That is especially true as they have to pick their kill before we finalize the dk and so they can't respond well to us DK'ing scum assuming the wagons are close.

I think the more useful implications are around Jamie. The fact that scum was on his wagon makes him more likely to be town. If someone on that wagon was bussing my gut would be kgray given how she left it for Damo.

Yuck. I really don't like this post at all. Why do you think the fact that scum voted for Jamie at some point makes him more likely to be town? Scum bus and distance all the time. And what about the way I left Jamie's wagon makes you think I'd be the most likely to bus him?

See one of my more recent posts for why I currently think it's unlikely you were bussing. But I had you down as such because of the way you left his wagon. You were scumreading Jamie and then it feels like your scumread just kinda disappeared when you switched to Damo. Sure you said that you still scum read him, but you never really pushed him after that. But that is rather besides the point as I no longer believe you were bussing.

To your first point, I agree that it is something scum do, but they still have to push for miskills more often than not. It doesn't earn Jamie a huge number of town points, but it does earn him a few. And if someone was distancing then I would suspect they wouldn't want Jamie to be the D1 kill hence my earlier thoughts about you bussing.

Maybe it's just my limited sample size but the only time I've seen distancing and bussing really do much is when Chaqa hard bussed his whole team. For example, Maniac last game got very little town cred for his D1 vote on me despite the bind it put me in.

[celaph]

That hasn't happened in any game I've been in, and he did seem like an easy target.

You have played like what? 3 games here?

Looking it up on the bot, the last 3 games you played in, Jamiet was scum in two of those, and GM in the third.

Did I miss a game, or are you just making stuff up here to try and make me look bad?

I'm pretty scummy when I'm the GM too, right?

Yeah, you know. Lack of +1s really made you sus.

[celaph]

You summarized it pretty well. I had to spend time (help with homework, make dinner, play a board game, etc) with family, so I didn't check the game for around 3 hours. I was 5 or 6 pages behind and I was the only non voter. I checked the bot and wagons are Durga, Bozo and Damo. On the 3 I decide to vote Damo more as a placeholder while I catch up.

After catching up I thought Damo's reaction to pressure was towny and also found weird how Bozo wagon just died with both Vecna and Bona jumping to Damo as soon as I voted. I told I might move to Bozo to see if Vecna and Bona were willing to do the same. They just ignored it.

##vote Bona

I wasn't around for EoD - I only showed up several minutes after.

Were you on a walk by any change?

[celaph]

These are really, really bad responses from Vecna and my townread on him is fading.

Vecna / Kgray scumteam?

I'd hope not else my D1 reads were entirely wrong.

[celaph]

Official vote count with approximately 10.5 hours to go in Day 2:

Durga (4) Bonatogether Vecna Maniac bozotheclown
kgray (2) Jamiet99uk dargorygel
Bonatogether (1) rdrivera2005

Will not be doing the links in the vote again...that was time intensive for (what I'm guessing) was very little benefit or use to the players. Let me know if you want that or something else in the vote counts.

celaph
Durga
kgray
lfischl

still need to cast a legal vote.

Durga is currently set to be beaned.

As nice as linky links are they do take more time.

[BunnyGo]

Official vote count with approximately 10.5 hours to go in Day 2:

Durga (4) Bonatogether Vecna Maniac bozotheclown
kgray (2) Jamiet99uk dargorygel
Bonatogether (1) rdrivera2005

Will not be doing the links in the vote again...that was time intensive for (what I'm guessing) was very little benefit or use to the players. Let me know if you want that or something else in the vote counts.

celaph
Durga
kgray
lfischl

still need to cast a legal vote.

Durga is currently set to be beaned.

As nice as linky links are they do take more time.

I WILL keep providing links to snippets of awesome baseball movies.

[celaph]

I do not usually pay attention to 'who is online' as a game element. But I did just find it odd that celaph was on, and has a number of people saying are displaying that we are looking at him... but he did not take time to answer or comment. Maybe he is madly busy. But nonetheless... as a counter wagon... and because I could either join a counter wagon on him or bona...
##VOTE CELAPH

My apologies. I've been catching up on my monitor while sitting in class. Getting around to respond at the moment. Perhaps I should hide myself, but don't care enough at the moment.

[Bonatogether]

I think meta reads doesn´t work most of the time, at least with good or experienced players. I try to not base any vote only on meta.

You played in a way as scum that made you got a lot of heat early last game, why you would play again as scum the same way in the next game? You can have some meta things that you can´t really fake after a lot of games, but the obvious things are easily fakeable.

As for why I would play in a similar way again, no one really pushed me until there was a guilty cop scan.