seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

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AnimalsCS
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#61 Post by AnimalsCS » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:24 pm

jasnah wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:29 pm
Wondering whether I'll get any satisfaction from writing an endgame tirade on Game 1.
It certainly deserves a tirade doesn't it :)

I'm not complaining though...

I will definitely be linking to your wonderful article on stalemate lines in my AAR.

anlari
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#62 Post by anlari » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:26 pm

Are we supposed to share the EOG in game or here?

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#63 Post by anlari » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:27 pm

In any case, here is the Turkey EOG from https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=339790

I guess I can break my EOG into a few phases:

1901 - 1905: I was mainly concerned about preventing a Lepanto which Italy seemed to be intent on. This didn't seem to be too challenging as Austria didn't play along, but I also did not have much scope to push against Italy while Austria had Greece, even if I were willing to expose my flank a lot. So I think my stab against Austria in 1905 was inevitable.

1905-1907: The stab against Austria worked well actually (even though I was worried it would have been very predictable), but my exposed flank came back to haunt me as Russia made their move. Since we had a common enemy in Austria at this point, I wonder if Russia would have attacked if they had known I would stab Austria in the same turn. In any case, I decided to prioritize my home SCs rather than try to hold on to Balkan, while trying to make nice with Austria. What I found really strange was that Russia kept on going with the futile attack for several years, which I think spoiled both of our games. Why not use that army in Armenia to defend your home SCs?

1907-end: My fate was pretty much sealed once Italy got that army in Syria, it was only a matter of time. As above, I don't understand why Russia kept supporting Italy at this point, while letting Sev go. Later, once Italy got stabbed, we managed to form an uneasy alliance with Russia to try to hold off Austria, but with the number of units Austria brought over, it was again only a matter of time. Which takes me to my next point of question - why prioritize taking those SCs instead of trying to achieve a draw? Wouldn't that fleet in Con have been more useful establishing a stalemate line?

In the end, I feel quite unfortunate that I lost the end game by one turn and got "defeated" instead of "survived" :(

Not the most detailed EOG, but I guess I spent most of the game with 1-2 units. Happy to elaborate if anyone has questions.

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#64 Post by AnimalsCS » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:23 pm

Here is my formatted AAR for Game 1 which was just copied-and-pasted from the Notes section for this game, which I used to type up my thoughts each turn:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vrF ... sp=sharing

TL;DR: I fought a very tricky battle with England and France in the early to mid game but made some key correct guesses that helped me gain the upper-hand. In the end-game, Austria seemed unfamiliar with stalemate lines which enabled me to solo.
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#65 Post by anlari » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:50 pm

anlari wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:27 pm
In any case, here is the Turkey EOG from https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=339790

I guess I can break my EOG into a few phases:

1901 - 1905: I was mainly concerned about preventing a Lepanto which Italy seemed to be intent on. This didn't seem to be too challenging as Austria didn't play along, but I also did not have much scope to push against Italy while Austria had Greece, even if I were willing to expose my flank a lot. So I think my stab against Austria in 1905 was inevitable.

1905-1907: The stab against Austria worked well actually (even though I was worried it would have been very predictable), but my exposed flank came back to haunt me as Russia made their move. Since we had a common enemy in Austria at this point, I wonder if Russia would have attacked if they had known I would stab Austria in the same turn. In any case, I decided to prioritize my home SCs rather than try to hold on to Balkan, while trying to make nice with Austria. What I found really strange was that Russia kept on going with the futile attack for several years, which I think spoiled both of our games. Why not use that army in Armenia to defend your home SCs?

1907-end: My fate was pretty much sealed once Italy got that army in Syria, it was only a matter of time. As above, I don't understand why Russia kept supporting Italy at this point, while letting Sev go. Later, once Italy got stabbed, we managed to form an uneasy alliance with Russia to try to hold off Austria, but with the number of units Austria brought over, it was again only a matter of time. Which takes me to my next point of question - why prioritize taking those SCs instead of trying to achieve a draw? Wouldn't that fleet in Con have been more useful establishing a stalemate line?

In the end, I feel quite unfortunate that I lost the end game by one turn and got "defeated" instead of "survived" :(

Not the most detailed EOG, but I guess I spent most of the game with 1-2 units. Happy to elaborate if anyone has questions.
I also wanted to elaborate on why I took the roundabout way to take Greece via Apu, rather than directly - I think this was quite important in the end since the Russian stab may not have been coming earlier.

Basically, I wanted to take Gre with an army and quickly follow up to Serbia. This would have required a convoy, and two supports since Ser was support holding. I was not confident that ION's support would not be cut off, so it felt safer convoying via Apu. It also gave me the option value to move against Italy and not stab, in case the Italian armies remained far away. In the end that didn't work out -because Tyrolia was not clashed out of Ven by Tri (that was low chance anyway), and because Austria killed the Albania army and gave Italy a new build in Rom (that one I was more helpful wouldn't happen).

So I think I made the right move given what I knew at the time, but of course with hindsight it would have worked out better to take Greece in Autumn 1904 and use a new build to deter Russia.

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#66 Post by pyxxy » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm

Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
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Pinecone333
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#67 Post by Pinecone333 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:25 pm

pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
You wrote EOGs for the games you weren't even in? What an absolute chad. I barely had the commitment to keep one for the game I was in, let alone analyzing all of the others!

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#68 Post by pyxxy » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:40 pm

Pinecone333 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:25 pm
pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
You wrote EOGs for the games you weren't even in? What an absolute chad. I barely had the commitment to keep one for the game I was in, let alone analyzing all of the others!
I fell off around year 1908-1910 in the other games (1,2,3) because that's when the Nexus gunboat tournament started to require more brainpower and I am writing live notes/EOGs for those as well (only the games I'm in! to be clear).
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aarodactyl
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#69 Post by aarodactyl » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:53 pm

pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
Oof, as italy your comments are definitely humbling. I'll go over them closer at some point to see how I can improve better.

My notes are at: https://pastebin.com/LhivX13F

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#70 Post by pyxxy » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 am

aarodactyl wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:53 pm
pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
Oof, as italy your comments are definitely humbling. I'll go over them closer at some point to see how I can improve better.

My notes are at: https://pastebin.com/LhivX13F
I'm glad you took notes! Even if they trail off after 1903. It's certainly hard to keep up the momentum. Personally I'm going to experiment with recording videos or possibly dictating notes in the future, because I find having to write everything that I'm thinking is quite tedious when my brain has already moved onto other possibilities.

If I had boil down relevant notes for you, it would probably just be this section:
(from commenting on what people should do in A02)
Italy, this is why some people look down on gunboat Lepanto. You're stuck. Turkey is full against you and that leaves you unable to do anything besides defend ION. A/R will benefit the most from this (if Austria gets their act together). Or the south will be in turmoil all game and E/G will decide the path forward. Best advice is...try taking EAS so that Austria can take BUL next year. That's the only way to progress against Turkey here.
In your notes, you talk about dreading the inevitable early war with Turkey. An army not in Tunis is the first step towards that future! You can always change your mind in 1903 and go after Turkey then. But keeping one army in the boot and the other roaming is a great way to broad your options past just attacking Turkey and possibly even interfere with the west/north aka E/F/G, by harassing whoever is winning that section of the board and slowing them down.

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#71 Post by AnimalsCS » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:07 am

pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
Awesome comments, thanks for watching this game and commenting!

I agree with a lot of what you've said and will definitely take to heart your comments about how England should have stabbed in the spring (which I didn't think about at the time!).

The only real thing that I disagree with is encouraging the Austrian stab of Italy and fleet build in winter 1907. As I discuss in my AAR, I was very scared of Austria building two armies there and attacking me, which I think would have been the best play, since Austria could not eliminate Italy quickly enough to make the stab worth it. Austria's major strength in the mid-game is being able to build multiple armies next to the stalemate line and actually support them into Tyr/Boh/Sil, unlike Germany who likely won't have armies in the area before trying to grab centers across the stalemate line.
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#72 Post by aarodactyl » Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:39 am

AnimalsCS wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:07 am
pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
Awesome comments, thanks for watching this game and commenting!

I agree with a lot of what you've said and will definitely take to heart your comments about how England should have stabbed in the spring (which I didn't think about at the time!).

The only real thing that I disagree with is encouraging the Austrian stab of Italy and fleet build in winter 1907. As I discuss in my AAR, I was very scared of Austria building two armies there and attacking me, which I think would have been the best play, since Austria could not eliminate Italy quickly enough to make the stab worth it. Austria's major strength in the mid-game is being able to build multiple armies next to the stalemate line and actually support them into Tyr/Boh/Sil, unlike Germany who likely won't have armies in the area before trying to grab centers across the stalemate line.
I agree with this. I didn’t think they’d be able to get away with it which is why I kept attacking turkey. Seemed like a three way
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#73 Post by Hithlum » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:57 am

Here are my notes from game #1. My first pastebin so I hop I got the settings correct.

https://pastebin.com/EgkXnVL0

Now going to read the rest :)
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#74 Post by Hithlum » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:54 am

pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
What a great read! I thought I sent clear signals but now I see how that can be interpreted by others. I really hoped to join with Turkey to attack Russia, mostly because I feared Juggernaut. The Italian fleets gave me the creeps and I expected a move on Greece much more than them to attack Turkey. So I never considered Italy being an ally to me. The convoy to Albania really flagged Italy as hostile.

I was so caught up in the moves that I took too little interest in the possibilities of a German solo. The same happened to me in 1 on 1 games; focussing on the moves like there is a long term goal to achive while the real goal is getting 18 centers.

Can you we do another game like this? This one really helped me in ways of communication, stalemate and going for the draw.
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#75 Post by Pinecone333 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:51 pm

Hithlum wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:54 am
Can you we do another game like this? This one really helped me in ways of communication, stalemate and going for the draw.
I would be up to join another! But maybe we should let the other two of the original 4 games wrap up first, so that anyone from those games who wants in can join too.
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#76 Post by aarodactyl » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:00 pm

Hithlum wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:54 am
pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
What a great read! I thought I sent clear signals but now I see how that can be interpreted by others. I really hoped to join with Turkey to attack Russia, mostly because I feared Juggernaut. The Italian fleets gave me the creeps and I expected a move on Greece much more than them to attack Turkey. So I never considered Italy being an ally to me. The convoy to Albania really flagged Italy as hostile.

I was so caught up in the moves that I took too little interest in the possibilities of a German solo. The same happened to me in 1 on 1 games; focussing on the moves like there is a long term goal to achive while the real goal is getting 18 centers.

Can you we do another game like this? This one really helped me in ways of communication, stalemate and going for the draw.
The fleets weren’t hostile. The convoy was though. I’m pretty sure I did it because I was getting a lot of vibes from you that you weren’t willing to attack turkey. Also I realized you weren’t a fan of my move to tyrolia (which also wasn’t hostile towards you.)

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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#77 Post by AnimalsCS » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:21 pm

Pinecone333 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:51 pm
Hithlum wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:54 am
Can you we do another game like this? This one really helped me in ways of communication, stalemate and going for the draw.
I would be up to join another! But maybe we should let the other two of the original 4 games wrap up first, so that anyone from those games who wants in can join too.
Yeah I agree that we could wait a week or two for other games to finish and then start another round of these. I would certainly enjoy playing more with this group!
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#78 Post by New England Fire Squad » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:13 pm

Those were some really enjoyable reads, Pyxxy. Well done
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#79 Post by pyxxy » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:42 pm

aarodactyl wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:39 am
AnimalsCS wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:07 am
pyxxy wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:14 pm
Here are the outside looking in notes/EOG that I promised way back in this thread, for game #1. Too busy rn to clean them up proper. Hopefully it will be interesting to the players.

https://pastebin.com/dDSUNVER
The only real thing that I disagree with is encouraging the Austrian stab of Italy and fleet build in winter 1907. As I discuss in my AAR, I was very scared of Austria building two armies there and attacking me, which I think would have been the best play, since Austria could not eliminate Italy quickly enough to make the stab worth it.
I agree with this. I didn’t think they’d be able to get away with it which is why I kept attacking turkey. Seemed like a three way
Went back and looked at W07 for Austria. I think I agree that Austria should have built two armies. Armies conquer Italy and it's a little bit of deception where maybe some Italys don't cover Venice in the spring and you walk right in. This sentence also reveals my opinion that it was a reasonable time to stab...but in review, perhaps waiting another year would have been wiser.

Reasons to stab in 1908:
- Italy is harassing France, who is the only person slowing down Germany, who is the only other solo threat that could out-race Austria

- Italy will get another center, or if lucky two, off Turkey next year and is almost too big to stab, likely setting the game on a path to a 3-way draw between Italy, Austria, and Germany

- Related, once Turkey is dead, Italy's fleets will head west through Ionian, preemptively defending against a stab

- Italy holds Smyrna which Turkey will prioritize recapturing before going after any of your (Austrian) centers

- Germany is too busy with France to harass your centers, so you (Austria) have time to wage a war against Italy

- You have 1-2 centers guaranteed next year in Moscow/Sev that will reinforce your stab

---------------------------------

Reasons to wait for 1909/build two armies in 1908 and decide in the spring:
- It gives a plausible spring moveset of heading to BOH and TYR, expecting Italy to bounce Austria in TYR, and then maybe diving for VEN in the fall

- You actually go after Germany and give yourself more time to set up for your solo attempt, along with possibly capturing 1-2 over the stalemate line

- You're still getting a build or two in 1909 and so you can set up the same situation again, even possibly building a fleet if it makes more sense in 1909

- You'll have almost finished off Russia and can send more units to focus on Italy/Germany in 1909

- Italy might trust you more, having seen that you didn't stab in 1908

- Italy doesn't have the armies to stab you, and when they build them, you will see it coming from a mile away, so there's not much risk to letting Italy get a little bigger

Hmmm as I write all these out....yep, I'm converted to "build two armies but don't stab in the spring of 1908" argument. I'm salivating at the chance to attack Germany and get across the stalemate line while also taking out the other solo threat.
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#80 Post by Hithlum » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:41 pm

pyxxy wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:42 pm
aarodactyl wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:39 am
AnimalsCS wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:07 am

The only real thing that I disagree with is encouraging the Austrian stab of Italy and fleet build in winter 1907. As I discuss in my AAR, I was very scared of Austria building two armies there and attacking me, which I think would have been the best play, since Austria could not eliminate Italy quickly enough to make the stab worth it.
I agree with this. I didn’t think they’d be able to get away with it which is why I kept attacking turkey. Seemed like a three way
Went back and looked at W07 for Austria. I think I agree that Austria should have built two armies. Armies conquer Italy and it's a little bit of deception where maybe some Italys don't cover Venice in the spring and you walk right in. This sentence also reveals my opinion that it was a reasonable time to stab...but in review, perhaps waiting another year would have been wiser.

Reasons to stab in 1908:
- Italy is harassing France, who is the only person slowing down Germany, who is the only other solo threat that could out-race Austria

- Italy will get another center, or if lucky two, off Turkey next year and is almost too big to stab, likely setting the game on a path to a 3-way draw between Italy, Austria, and Germany

- Related, once Turkey is dead, Italy's fleets will head west through Ionian, preemptively defending against a stab

- Italy holds Smyrna which Turkey will prioritize recapturing before going after any of your (Austrian) centers

- Germany is too busy with France to harass your centers, so you (Austria) have time to wage a war against Italy

- You have 1-2 centers guaranteed next year in Moscow/Sev that will reinforce your stab

---------------------------------

Reasons to wait for 1909/build two armies in 1908 and decide in the spring:
- It gives a plausible spring moveset of heading to BOH and TYR, expecting Italy to bounce Austria in TYR, and then maybe diving for VEN in the fall

- You actually go after Germany and give yourself more time to set up for your solo attempt, along with possibly capturing 1-2 over the stalemate line

- You're still getting a build or two in 1909 and so you can set up the same situation again, even possibly building a fleet if it makes more sense in 1909

- You'll have almost finished off Russia and can send more units to focus on Italy/Germany in 1909

- Italy might trust you more, having seen that you didn't stab in 1908

- Italy doesn't have the armies to stab you, and when they build them, you will see it coming from a mile away, so there's not much risk to letting Italy get a little bigger

Hmmm as I write all these out....yep, I'm converted to "build two armies but don't stab in the spring of 1908" argument. I'm salivating at the chance to attack Germany and get across the stalemate line while also taking out the other solo threat.
Thanks for the insight. That seems like a much better option than the one I played.

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