M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[kgray]

Concerning macca.
I realize that he is fairly (but not completely) inexperienced. But that is not a free pass.

I noted before the 'connection' with kgray. Their (Macca's) response was a quick denial, including a vote-record-quote, and a diversion. And then now a vote for kgray.

I have been townreading kgray until this morning. But a) I am not satisfied with the potential buddying of me. b) I am now agreeing that kgray's digging this game has been surface (other than a couple of particular angry bouts.)

Today looks to me like a hooked scum, trying to spit out the hook.

##VOTE Macca

Et tu, darg? How is what I'm doing any more surface than what others are doing?

I have already explained my townread of you and I don't understand why that's less compelling to you than, for example, Vecna's insistence that seth is town. Or Chaqa's that ghug is town. Or yours that damo is town. Are you, Chaqa, me and Vecna all scum who are buddying someone?

[kgray]

I wouldnt be too surprised if the scumteam is actually just Macca-Kgray-Ghug-Chaqa

Either chaqa or ghug could be replaced by -maybe- rdrivera/Damo

rdrivera/damo...
I have strongly townread damo all game. I even changed my 'use plan' for my fruit based on HIS (and others' description/advice... but really mostly HIS not performing as i expected...) announcement of the fruit. This morning, I am thinking that I have some bias going. His argument about Jamie is faulty, yes. I am not sure that is AI, though. He is picking holes in the prevailing reasoning, but that is very damo, yes? I am not ready to vote for him.

rdrivera has not made an impression on me. It doesn't seem likely to me that scum would choose that role. But maybe teacon (et al) are right. IF scum had chosen rdr's role, it would have had the result we presently have. Rdr seems 'safe.' AND he would have low-boiled the entire game? I don't know... he might have, as scum, tried to take an active town-leader persona.

I do not really see either likely.

Rivera could also have been recruited and randomly assigned vanilla. Does he take an active town-leader persona as scum? I've never seen scum!Rivera.

[kgray]

Jamiet, read my post there, and look at the timing of Macca's posts today.

See if you can get behind my reasoning on how scum are trying to guide/council him and trying to make him look towny by constant fake townslips.

Assuming scum has daychat, I would expect better squirming from 'coached' macca. But I still see this. The scumchat would not be telling him exactly what to say. They might say, "make a slip about THIS" and so he does... but is nervous and scrambly.

Quick reminder that Macca uses they/them pronouns.

[kgray]

it might be prudent to have the double voter claim right now, since if we do not hit scum today, tomorrow could be mylo (and we really dont wanna be put in a position there that we have to decide on the spot if its town or scum).

I was thinking through the massclaim idea, wondering if it is time. But the main value of a massclaim to me at this point was to know where the DV is, for safety. We know we can protect them, assuming Jamie is who he claims. Perhaps just asking the DV to claim would be all we need?

I'd be interested in hearing others on this.

Jamie can be roleblocked, though.

[kgray]

Damo is voting for Ghug
Vecna scumreads Ghug
Kgray scumreads Ghug
Rdrivera scumreads Ghug

I scumread Ghug
I think we should dispose of Ghug today

##VOTE GHUG

I am suspicious of ghug but he is not my top scumread. Mostly because my top scumread is Chaqa, and I'm not sure if they can be scum together.

[Chaqa]

Damo is voting for Ghug
Vecna scumreads Ghug
Kgray scumreads Ghug
Rdrivera scumreads Ghug

I scumread Ghug
I think we should dispose of Ghug today

##VOTE GHUG

I am suspicious of ghug but he is not my top scumread. Mostly because my top scumread is Chaqa, and I'm not sure if they can be scum together.

What is your reasoning on me BESIDES me voting for you?

Your scumread on me has felt very much OMGUS all game. I hope others see this too.

[kgray]

That little probe of Macca is the most town thing Kgray has done all game, but I still don't think she's town. It's possibly a pre-arranged interaction as I pointed out (odd that Vecna thinks it was his idea), but that to me is a situation where we flip kgray first and then Macca, I think?

Excuse me? How was asking Macca about those reads the most town thing I've done all game? Pointing out something like that is supper NAI.

[Chaqa]

That little probe of Macca is the most town thing Kgray has done all game, but I still don't think she's town. It's possibly a pre-arranged interaction as I pointed out (odd that Vecna thinks it was his idea), but that to me is a situation where we flip kgray first and then Macca, I think?

Excuse me? How was asking Macca about those reads the most town thing I've done all game? Pointing out something like that is supper NAI.

No, the thing about you pushing Macca on the ghug/HB thing last night. But it's also possibly something you two would pre-arrange.

[kgray]

Damo is voting for Ghug
Vecna scumreads Ghug
Kgray scumreads Ghug
Rdrivera scumreads Ghug

I scumread Ghug
I think we should dispose of Ghug today

##VOTE GHUG

I am suspicious of ghug but he is not my top scumread. Mostly because my top scumread is Chaqa, and I'm not sure if they can be scum together.

What is your reasoning on me BESIDES me voting for you?

Your scumread on me has felt very much OMGUS all game. I hope others see this too.

I don't care if it's omgus. I'm the only person you've pushed all game and you've never given a convincing or original reason to why you scumread me.

I also think that on D1 and D2 you made connections between top wagons that I think were all town (assuming Jamie is) saying that one or the other had to be scum, for no reason, just to find a way to vote someone.

You've spent a lot of time doing nothing except talk about mechanics or shitpost and don't appear to be doing any thinking or solving.

You're hiding behind this tunnel of me as an excuse to look like you're participating but you don't care about actually making a case or figuring out my alignment.

Me questioning Macca's vote there was, somehow, the first time you've even considered I could be town.

Call it omgus or whatever you want. It's scummy as hell.

[kgray]

That little probe of Macca is the most town thing Kgray has done all game, but I still don't think she's town. It's possibly a pre-arranged interaction as I pointed out (odd that Vecna thinks it was his idea), but that to me is a situation where we flip kgray first and then Macca, I think?

Excuse me? How was asking Macca about those reads the most town thing I've done all game? Pointing out something like that is supper NAI.

No, the thing about you pushing Macca on the ghug/HB thing last night. But it's also possibly something you two would pre-arrange.

Oh, I misunderstood. But I think my main point still stands.

[Chaqa]

I am suspicious of ghug but he is not my top scumread. Mostly because my top scumread is Chaqa, and I'm not sure if they can be scum together.

What is your reasoning on me BESIDES me voting for you?

Your scumread on me has felt very much OMGUS all game. I hope others see this too.

I don't care if it's omgus. I'm the only person you've pushed all game and you've never given a convincing or original reason to why you scumread me.

I also think that on D1 and D2 you made connections between top wagons that I think were all town (assuming Jamie is) saying that one or the other had to be scum, for no reason, just to find a way to vote someone.

You've spent a lot of time doing nothing except talk about mechanics or shitpost and don't appear to be doing any thinking or solving.

You're hiding behind this tunnel of me as an excuse to look like you're participating but you don't care about actually making a case or figuring out my alignment.

Me questioning Macca's vote there was, somehow, the first time you've even considered I could be town.

Call it omgus or whatever you want. It's scummy as hell.

My INITIAL read was completely meta and gut-feeling, based on you not actually trying to solve or probe like normal. It evolved a bit, and then I did my little test on you with the bo/ghug/Jamie test, which made me 99.9% sure you're scum.

I haven't *pushed* others too much, true, but I have and have had other scumreads, I just want to get the scum I know out of the way first.

Your refusal to understand and acknowledge I have reason to vote for you, and your refiusal to provide any non-OMGUS reason for voting me, is the proof you're scum.

[Chaqa]

hi EMC, I see you lurking. Wish you were here buddy

[Jamiet99uk]

it might be prudent to have the double voter claim right now, since if we do not hit scum today, tomorrow could be mylo (and we really dont wanna be put in a position there that we have to decide on the spot if its town or scum).

I was thinking through the massclaim idea, wondering if it is time. But the main value of a massclaim to me at this point was to know where the DV is, for safety. We know we can protect them, assuming Jamie is who he claims. Perhaps just asking the DV to claim would be all we need?

I'd be interested in hearing others on this.

Jamie can be roleblocked, though.

Yea but the fun thing about Roleblocking me is that if the other FH also visits the same target, the Roleblock on me would cause their protection to succeed.

[Chaqa]

I was thinking through the massclaim idea, wondering if it is time. But the main value of a massclaim to me at this point was to know where the DV is, for safety. We know we can protect them, assuming Jamie is who he claims. Perhaps just asking the DV to claim would be all we need?

I'd be interested in hearing others on this.

Jamie can be roleblocked, though.

Yea but the fun thing about Roleblocking me is that if the other FH also visits the same target, the Roleblock on me would cause their protection to succeed.

But would the other FH risk protecting you since if mafia doesn't roleblock, it could cancel out?

FV could also mess with it

[ghug]

Well, things calmed down.

@Jamie, I believe you. Could you explain why you claimed at this time?

First, I felt it was of some benefit to town to know understand the night's events, and secondly, I couldn't bear the prospect of Ghug tunnelling me again for a whole day and wasting yet more of town's time, and thirdly there is still another FH out there, who could choose to save me tonight if they wish, thus presenting the scum with a dilemma (which is actually a more complex dilemma than it initially seems!).

Thanks
This seems like town Jamie to me. Note the personal reason.. ghug... tied around a rational/logical deductive answer.

Sadly I think you're right.

[ghug]

Would it be useful for me to announce who I saved on N1 and N2?

I'd still like to know why you thought I was confirmed town for a second.

[Chaqa]

I was thinking a bit about Maniac and who scum likely thought he was going to shoot. The initial list he gave was:

Vecna
Chaqa
Bunny
Ghug
Seth

Which got narrowed down to Chaqa and Seth. He also voted kgray and hinted Dargo could be a target (I think?)

I would have expected Maniac's shot to go to one of these three people. Mafia would likely not kill Maniac at that point if they were super-concerned about him shooting one of their own. It's a slight point in kgray's favor, as well as Seth (and mine, from other perspectives, I would think).

Curious to see Vecna, Jamie, and ghug's thoughts on this. Is it WIFOM, or did you guys think Maniac would shoot someone he never mentioned?

[Vecna]

im perfectly fine popping Macca - Kgray - Chaqa - Ghug (in that order because I like Ghug and he's entertaining) untill one of em doesnt flip scum.

I feel quite good about those 4 just being the team

@Vecna do you have any evidence of scum on Macca other than your coaching theory? You do not have to provide detail if you don't wish, a simple yes or no will suffice. Thanks.

no extra evidence

[ghug]

I don't see much benefit to the double voter claiming today.

##CALLGM Can you nag Flum and remind him he's still playing?

[Chaqa]

I don't see much benefit to the double voter claiming today.

##CALLGM Can you nag Flum and remind him he's still playing?

I don't think there's much benefit in anyone else claiming, but I also don't think there's much benefit in keeping the information hidden much longer either. We're getting close-ish to MYLO/LYLO type situations.