M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[ghug]

Bananas are terrible.

##CALLGM If the first role eliminated has no powers, does the backup get the next one, or become a vanilla?

This has been answered.

O please do tell me where

[ghug]

Ah I see Maniac claims vengeful.

We think this is a scum claim, yes?

That is, it may be his correct role - but if we daykill him today, then we are handing scum a double NK tonight, in effect.

Clever play, Maniac.

I doubt scum bought Vengeful, and I doubt a scum vengeful would make this play instead of trying to survive and just taking someone with them when they do, but Maniac gonna Maniac, so the second point could be wrong.

Why did you assume it was a scum action?

Because I think Maniac is scum.

This claim doesn't cause you to re-evaluate?

[Jamiet99uk]

I doubt scum bought Vengeful, and I doubt a scum vengeful would make this play instead of trying to survive and just taking someone with them when they do, but Maniac gonna Maniac, so the second point could be wrong.

Why did you assume it was a scum action?

Because I think Maniac is scum.

This claim doesn't cause you to re-evaluate?

It caused me to stop and think, yes. But a claim doesn't simply erase the claimant's past behaviour.

[Jamiet99uk]

Bananas are terrible.

##CALLGM If the first role eliminated has no powers, does the backup get the next one, or become a vanilla?

This has been answered.

O please do tell me where

It is answered in the OP, on page 1, Ghug, where the Universal Backup's role PM is displayed:

"You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role."

[Chaqa]

I still read that to mean:

The first person dies, then:
1. If they have powers, the UB takes them
2. If they do not, the UB does not trigger

The next person to die has no effect since it specifies the first person to die, NOT the first person (with powers) to die.

[Jamiet99uk]

(I have highlighted the answer to your query)

[ghug]

This has been answered.

O please do tell me where

It is answered in the OP, on page 1, Ghug, where the Universal Backup's role PM is displayed:

"You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role."

I find this ambiguous. As written, I think Chaqa is right that it can only be the first person eliminated, and if it doesn't trigger, then it never triggers, but I can see an argument for the alternative: that it is still active and triggers on the next person to be eliminated.

[Jamiet99uk]

I still read that to mean:

The first person dies, then:
1. If they have powers, the UB takes them
2. If they do not, the UB does not trigger

The next person to die has no effect since it specifies the first person to die, NOT the first person (with powers) to die.

That is a rather perverse interpretation, surely.

The normal function of a Universal Backup is that it assumes the powers of the first PR to die. It is a normal part of the role that it does not assume the roles of VTs or otherwise power-less people.

[ghug]

Because I think Maniac is scum.

This claim doesn't cause you to re-evaluate?

It caused me to stop and think, yes. But a claim doesn't simply erase the claimant's past behaviour.

Do you believe mafia didn't recruit, then?

What about Maniac is soooo scummy that a claim that makes him mechanically very unlikely to be town doesn't sway you.

[Jamiet99uk]

O please do tell me where

It is answered in the OP, on page 1, Ghug, where the Universal Backup's role PM is displayed:

"You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role."

I find this ambiguous. As written, I think Chaqa is right that it can only be the first person eliminated, and if it doesn't trigger, then it never triggers, but I can see an argument for the alternative: that it is still active and triggers on the next person to be eliminated.

What you describe as the "alternative" is the normal adjudication on MafiaScum and Mafia Universe.

It would be very odd if Worcej is doing the opposite.

[Jamiet99uk]

This claim doesn't cause you to re-evaluate?

It caused me to stop and think, yes. But a claim doesn't simply erase the claimant's past behaviour.

Do you believe mafia didn't recruit, then?

What about Maniac is soooo scummy that a claim that makes him mechanically very unlikely to be town doesn't sway you.

Oh ok, do you want me to make the case on Maniac that I was going to make until he claimed?

[Jamiet99uk]

Teatime calls. Back in a bit.

[ghug]

It is answered in the OP, on page 1, Ghug, where the Universal Backup's role PM is displayed:

"You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role."

I find this ambiguous. As written, I think Chaqa is right that it can only be the first person eliminated, and if it doesn't trigger, then it never triggers, but I can see an argument for the alternative: that it is still active and triggers on the next person to be eliminated.

What you describe as the "alternative" is the normal adjudication on MafiaScum and Mafia Universe.

It would be very odd if Worcej is doing the opposite.

I agree that this is the more logical role. Thus I'm asking for a clarification.

[ghug]

It caused me to stop and think, yes. But a claim doesn't simply erase the claimant's past behaviour.

Do you believe mafia didn't recruit, then?

What about Maniac is soooo scummy that a claim that makes him mechanically very unlikely to be town doesn't sway you.

Oh ok, do you want me to make the case on Maniac that I was going to make until he claimed?

I hate cases, but you do you.

Please try to incorporate the new information into your argument, or it will not be compelling.

[Chaqa]

This has been answered.

O please do tell me where

It is answered in the OP, on page 1, Ghug, where the Universal Backup's role PM is displayed:

"You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role."

You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role.

Highlighted what I think is the critical detail

[Chaqa]

Seeing that they've decided to use a non-standard version of the Vengeful due to preferring the text as written over as intended, I think they have to rule the UB does not gain any powers since the Restless Spirit did not have them, UNLESS the UB would also gain a death vote after dying.

[Chaqa]

I know this seems pedantic but I still think UB could be a scum role and I'd like it to be a known quantity that also fits within the precedent the GMs have set,

Also I think it's very odd Jamie is not having any issue with this.

[kgray]

@Vecna, what possessed you to make your little semiclaim?

@@Flum, top few scumreads, five Jamie votes, top few townreads, five Jamie votes, please.

@kgray, wouldn't I be giving Chaqa more cover for an action if I told him not to sheep you?

@bo you're actually the worst

No? He said he would only change it if you agree that he should. So if you don't tell him to, he has cover to stay there. He didn't say he would definitely move it if you told him to, so in that case he'd have no cover to either stay there or move off. He'd have to make another decision.

The fact that this doesn't bother you is extremely suspicious to me.

[kgray]

im not ever going to be on the chopping block anyways.

I don't understand how your claims clear you in any way.

[kgray]

The problem is, if Maniac is Scum Vengeful, how can we win without daykilling him at some point?

Perhaps it is therefore better to do it today than waiting until there are only a few town left?

I guess Vengeful is a pretty damn powerful role for Scum to have.

We can't, unless they picked the white flag option and he's the last one left.