M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[dargorygel]

It is difficult to argue against ghug's gut feeling, and vecna's 'seems like.' To me, I am obvtown. Unlikely to be on today. I am happiest, still, with a teacon kill. But Jamie's flip reveals more. I also note, regarding Jamie, that he has gone silentish.

[dargorygel]

oops
##VOTE JAMIET99UK

[Vecna]

Okay, thank you. This is a reasonable explanation. The way you worded your response seemed a little weird initially, but ok.

Why not recruit? Surely having an extra team member is a big boost.

I wouldn't have recruited because I'd want the $ for other things. Whenever you get there, you'll find the crazy theory/strategy I sent to the godthread. I thought they could rolecop 15 times at once on N1 (which is illegal, as it turns out, but it's what I'd have tried to do.)

As for non-recruiting, it makes scum a smaller target in the lynch pool. yeah, the team gets to mylo one day faster. But if maf has encryption and town has gladiator, that doesn't seem like too big a deal.

contrast no-recruit:
d1 15 3
d2 13 3
d3 11 3
d4 09 3
d5 07 3
d6 05 3 mylo

with what happens when they recruit:
d1 14 4
d2 12 4
d3 10 4
d4 08 4
d5 06 4 mylo

Without investigative roles, it's more likely that town tears itself apart than anything else. Two investigative roles + something protective. I didn't think about it much more than that because I didn't roll scum.

(sidebar: what do we call lylo / mylo now? also what's the new word for ML? It's double plus ungood for me to switch to new words if i can't make them acronymns lol)

Interesting post from teacon. bunch of towny thingies in there at least. If fabricated he did a pretty good job on at least making me strongly doubt my initial impression.

It looks like I have some catching up to do. That happens when you sleep. I will do so from my last post, Vecna style, so excuse me if I say anything that then becomes redundant when I read the next page, but I'm working fast.

Scum scum scum scum scum
Scummy scummy scummy scum
Don't forget to vote!

There is nothing scummy about that post.
You are a pest and if you're town, you're bad at this game.
Please say something intelligent, or don't post at all.
Thank you.

more traditional towny jamiet posting

@Bozo

I'd recruit and take both trackers to spend my $90, and then go into debt to take the 1-Shot Follower as well, which would leave me with -$3, which you just NK N1 to get yourself back out of debt.

Maybe I'd consider also taking the Universal Backup and NK'ing a couple more times. Essentially the goal would be to make the scum team completely immune to being investigated.

huh, I was already wondering why noone ever stated the oh so obvious "best" strategy.

Scum did not have to take low cost abilities. They have plenty of methods to pick the actually good stuff. Screw day talk. Screw roleblocks if theres nothing left on town that is dangerous to scum.

You think Flum is "flapping" because he made an obvious joke scumslip?

No, because he's backtracking on the massclaim suggestion

Is it backtracking or just a resigned, "massclaiming is a bad idea; fine."

post to pay attention to. did he end the day on flum? Odd that HB keeps just responding to damo and ignoring most of everything else.

If you strip away the haikus, pizza posts, bozo's survey and nonsense there's not a lot left. What's up with people?

Getting lost in the minutiae of the set-up?

and again

Where did vecna go. Only one post since page 25.

my buddy is missing me I see

Where did vecna go. Only one post since page 25.

Vecna has contributed a lot more than most of the players today.

Why are you specifically worried about Vecna?

I did? gotta be carefull with jamiet trying to buddy me

Damo feels too normal.

Ghug continuing to be ~scary~

them call outs

Too normal?

Typically you're weird and abrasive and I don't understand your thought processes. Here I'm not seeing that.

I haven't knowingly changed. Hopefully you'll soon be back to finding me weird, abrasive and opaque.

Yep, them feelings. Normally you only get to this state when youre scum or you have reached a level of confidence because you vigged a scum in the face.

If I was scum, id totally NK you here (assuming youre town). You little monster in the making

Hey, listen to me, town.

There's 90 minutes left, and there are are eight wagons (9 if you count "no kill") and three non-voters.

Could people think about who they actually want to daykill today, please?

That's townJamie speaking

Why is that town-jamiet speaking? Ghug called him out for not doing this exact thing just a few posts earlier.

Ghug: Jamiet is scum for not doing X
Jamiet: Why, let me do X
Damo: So town, wow

wtf lol

He actually was doing it before (I pointed it out then) and you did not comment on it then.

so weird lol

Still being freaked out by damo on every level.

[Vecna]

Hey, listen to me, town.

There's 90 minutes left, and there are are eight wagons (9 if you count "no kill") and three non-voters.

Could people think about who they actually want to daykill today, please?

Sure.

##Vote Jamiet99uk

I really have the feeling Chaqa will have a moment again this game where his date cancels on him

(actually not continuing this into a wall because I feel this comment is deserving of a post of its own)

[Vecna]

How does any of this make me scum, Chaqa?

Think. You are not as stupid as you sometimes pretend to be.

lol I don't think town Jamie has ever said something like this...

Maybe not to you, but he says that shit all the time when he feels he's being unjustly scumread. It was a bit more dramatic in the past, but im really not getting any of the scumreads.

You knew your alignment, and everyone else knew theirs.

True, but I often base my entire playstyle on my role. No different this time.

You are the person who used to make a big deal about not reading your Role PM.

How can you also be the guy who bases his entire playstyle on his role?

Also, this is actually a pretty good call-out on chaqa (who I think is quite likely scum, in case you hadnt figured that out from my other very subtle hints).

The three people on the Teacon7 wagon have been sitting there for a long time, with no further movement. Since then Teacon has answered the questions that were put to him.

That wagon concerns me.

Vecna's been gone, as you pointed out yourself and defended him for. rd has an well. Both of these are typical. What questions has teacon adequately answered?

You're doing the thing scum HR does where you cast vague aspersions on a wagon as if it's not made up of discrete voters.

Im sitting here, taking notes (not really though, thatd be desperate). "Is this finally what a town Ghug really looks like, or can he even fake this type of shit".

You are the person who used to make a big deal about not reading your Role PM.

How can you also be the guy who bases his entire playstyle on his role?

lol no isn't that Maniac?

I don't think I ever actively ignored my role PM... I just said that to stir things up.

You definitely claimed this behaviour, in more than one game.

Wait, wait, wait, wait

Critical thought in between

Is this the same Jamiet that claimed to not even remember that Ghug bussed Summit last game? And that he instantly forgot anything from any past game?

Yet here, he does suddenly slam this bit of info in Chaqa's face.

Look at me doing some critical analysis here. Boy-o-boy, im so proud of myself. If only this shit was ai, and not just me being a dick over shit thats convenient in the moment.

[Jamiet99uk]

You definitely claimed this behaviour, in more than one game.

Wait, wait, wait, wait

Critical thought in between

Is this the same Jamiet that claimed to not even remember that Ghug bussed Summit last game? And that he instantly forgot anything from any past game?

Yet here, he does suddenly slam this bit of info in Chaqa's face.

Look at me doing some critical analysis here. Boy-o-boy, im so proud of myself. If only this shit was ai, and not just me being a dick over shit thats convenient in the moment.

I didn't claim that I "instantly forget everything". That's a huge exaggeration Vecna. I will stand by the point that I don't generally remember which event happened in which game, especially when I am GM, because as GM it's not happening to me directly, I'm a detached neutral umpire. I do remember general things that people do, especially when it's bullshit that annoys me, such as Chaqa's whole "I haven't read my role PM" craic. I couldn't tell you which games it happened in if my life depended on it, but I remember him doing it as a general thing.

[Vecna]

I am walking home and I’ve lost the web address to the bot. Is it still for votes for Flum And three for T con?

lol. well at least he didnt just sneakily hide, but announced his presence. Lets see if he now votes for flum, after defending him earlier. Oh the anticipation!

Vecna's been gone, as you pointed out yourself and defended him for. rd has an well. Both of these are typical. What questions has teacon adequately answered?

You're doing the thing scum HR does where you cast vague aspersions on a wagon as if it's not made up of discrete voters.

How sure you are about Jamiet? I am tempted to join his wagon and push Teacon next.

It's day one, and guak always said that if I'm ever right day one, I'm scum (see last game), but he's giving me far and away the strongest scum vibes.

• Opportunistically tried to push a ghug/Flum day.

• Spent more time trolling me than being pissed off at me.

• Making arguments about wagons instead of the people on them.

• Not actively pushing *for* someone, which is odd.

None of those things are concerning for jamiet lol. I dont think anyone has told an obvious lie or untruthfullness, and those are like 90% of the reasons jamiet pushes people on D1.

Anyways, im getting way too involved in all this jamiet business.

@Flum and @teacon...knowing that D1s are usually a crapshoot.

Why do you feel you should not be eliminated today?

hahaha ok

The three people on the Teacon7 wagon have been sitting there for a long time, with no further movement. Since then Teacon has answered the questions that were put to him.

That wagon concerns me.

Vecna's been gone, as you pointed out yourself and defended him for. rd has an well. Both of these are typical. What questions has teacon adequately answered?

You're doing the thing scum HR does where you cast vague aspersions on a wagon as if it's not made up of discrete voters.

Why is Vecna gone? He sh**posted massively for 24 hours and then disappeared?

excuse me?

@Flum and @teacon...knowing that D1s are usually a crapshoot.

Why do you feel you should not be eliminated today?

Why are you not asking @Jamie too? This stinks.

I was getting to it, Bunny. Hold your cottontail.

@Jamie, anything more compelling than, "don't daykill me?"

hmmmm. After voting for jamiet. After being called out for it.

What answer are you realistically even expecting here?

He seems to see the PV role differently than I do. I think the PV would be a great place for a person who us usually NK'd early to hide when they're scum. It explains why they're still alive ... what scumteam nk's the vanilla?

I have really longhand probability math on it that I didn't post because no one cares for longhand math.

You can always argue that they're hunting for something or someone in particular and it's not you. You don't have to take a powerless role in order to get suspicion off. Besides, rdrivera is not always a fearkill early. His N1 death last game was not a fearkill, if I remember correctly.

This pop-in from bo is also a bit weird. Why interact with the Teacon argument in this way? the timing feels strange. Like he doesnt care about his surroundings, what is going on. He just seems interested in the argument surrounding Rdrivera at that very specific point.

It shouldn't, because if I were scum there would be daychat and I'd tell my teammates what to do there.

Lol, as if you'd be the one giving Flum advice.

Daychat is also not a given.

Try again.

Day chat is a given if the mafia is even remotely intelligent.

Yeah, imagine not taking daychat instead of taking two investigative roles to both deny them to town and help you track down other PR's....

Read the f* setup.

Or we are both scum and you are really bussing me?

I mean I understand the reaction to the vote because I didn’t understand it either but still seems overly defensive.

WTF is this hedging?

I swear, im gonna attack people even harder over this hedging shit than people are trying to correct me when I use certain terminology for booting people out of the game.

Hedging.

Is not.

A scumtell.

Instead.

it is by far

The #1 thing

People get scumread and mislynched for.

blammo

[Jamiet99uk]

##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet

##vote Jamie

I should elaborate. My case against Jamie is that he asked teacon7 who he thought was pushing a MIS-KILL on him. How would Jamie know? If Jamie flips scum, teacon is clear.

I explained this perfectly clearly and you are being wilfully stupid.

[Jamiet99uk]

@seth @ Ghug

Case against Jamie

<snip>
The thread is much more readable -

Oh, I apologise for caring about the game. I apologise for participating a whole lot more than you can be bothered to do. I am so very sorry that I am trying to help town win the game. However can you forgive me?

Your case is shit.

[Jamiet99uk]

I agree with Maniac's presentation of what we can learn.
##JAMIET99UK

You will learn that I am town.

I notice that you focus on "what we can learn" rather than saying you agree with his suspicion that I am scum.

Do you scumread me? If so, why? Ask me questions and I shall answer them. You should be able to see that I responded to Maniac and he has dismissed and/or ignored my responses. If I am your top scumread, explain why.

[Vecna]

Well...then one of us has reading comprehension issues. I'm busy with seth's weird ISO now.

I appreciate your ability to insult without insulting.

Why is Vecna on your radar while I, for example, am apparently not, and why did you not vote for Vecna when it was feasible to do so?

You always play like this.

Honestly, I'm worried Vecna got in a car accident at this point.

I'm not saying he's scummy. I'm saying "WHERE IS HE?!"

Bro, relax. People sometimes are not playing mafia. Especially when the EoD is suddenly at a different time due to timezones and daylight savings and other witchcraft.

Y'all, Flum is a good player when he's town, and mechanical suggestions are never a good reason to scumread someone.

Jamie has been very scummy, and is less than useless when he is town. Vote Jamie

Even though I think Ghug is likely wrong on Jamiet (just my gut feeling, im not certain) the way he pushes him here and tried to divert from flum seems very towny.

Ghug would probably love to have flum booted and save jamiet for D2. Sublime acting job here if he's scum, but this just seemed like a genuine save attempt and tunnel.

I appreciate your ability to insult without insulting.

Why is Vecna on your radar while I, for example, am apparently not, and why did you not vote for Vecna when it was feasible to do so?

You always play like this.

Honestly, I'm worried Vecna got in a car accident at this point.

I'm not saying he's scummy. I'm saying "WHERE IS HE?!"

Why are you any more worried that Vecna got in a car accident than you are Macca, who has also not posted in nearly the same amount of time?

Its almost as if bo is just asking questions for the sake of it. The answer is rather obvious, no?

(also macca is never here at EoD, but im not even sure if bo knows that).

Like, its 4 mins to EoD and your main thing of importance is arguing over this shit?

takeaway: Bo is scum and the 3 wagons (flum/jamiet/Teacon) were all town so it didnt matter)

I have very few strong feelings about the leading wagons, but as of my last refresh on the bot page, the votes are tied 4-4.

I'm townleaning jamie rn.

I'm scumleaning flum because:
a) talking about massclaim
b) it seemed like he was buddying people. Actually, it seemed like he was playing good cop - bad cop along with vecna.

so ##vote flum

Still not sure about this slot though. Was on the chopping block. Waited very very long to vote, when it could be stated it did no longer matter.

Also, with the over-explenatory stuff. Does not smell particularly great.

##VOTE Jamie

Fuck this runaway shit. Make someone decide.

Hmm, at least this way of doing it I like and works slightly in bo's favor (ofcourse its also easy to do between town wagons).

Lol good luck town!

Day 1 daykill is a crapshoot and since I was a role (spirit thing) that doesn't actually lose town a number if killed, I decided I was the most optimal miskill over other potential roles. (I'm also going to be really busy coming up) Hope the wagon analysis will be useful. I did consider trying to obvtown at the end there because I do genuinely think Jamiet is scum and scum kill would have been better, but I already kind of committed.

The first person I vote every day will be the person I sheep so you can treat them as a double voter.
You can try to ouiji board me and I'll try to interact lmao

Also, mafia almost definitely recruited since they didn't grab this role. If you're a town doublevoter it's basically confirmed there are 4 mafia.

I lied about the pizza sorry Jamiet.

Also y'all are lucky you only have to deal with me for one day phase this game.

Actually I sort of wanna claim your vote flum.

[Jamiet99uk]

Unofficial but accurate VOTE COUNT
(including Fluminator)

teacon7 (3) - Hamilton Brian, damo666, Chaqa
kgray (3) - Hellenic Riot, ghug, Fluminator
seth24c (2) - rdrivera2005, BunnyGo
Hellenic Riot (2) - Jamiet99uk, seth24c
Jamiet99uk (2) - Maniac, dargorygel
Chaqa (1) - kgray
BunnyGo (1) - teacon7
Maniac (1) - bo_sox48
bo_sox48 (1) - Vecna

NOBODY is set to be masterminded.

[Jamiet99uk]

On Page 74 Hellenic Riot naked voted for Kgray, no reason at all offered.

Hamilton asked him about it and this was his response:

A lot of names haven't crossed my lips, and I don't think I've given any reads on any that have

This didn't explain the "why" part of the vote.
I pressed HR on this, but he disappeared and did not answer:

Could you answer the first part of the question, instead of just the second part?

15 pages of absence followed, and then HR reappeared and briefly got involved in the Fruit Vendor discussion:

Being tracked to someone that isn't the kill is a pretty good thing, particularly if there's only one scum left.

Still no explanation for the Kgray vote, and still avoiding answering questions about it.

During N1, Hellenic Riot did not mention Kgray at all.
During D1, Hellenic Riot did not mention Kgray at all.

Something is not right here.

##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

Hi Jamie

Everybody stop for a moment.

Look at this shit.

If you townread HR, please read the quoted exchange ending in "Hi Jamie" and tell me why he is town and how he is helping town right now?

I have seen scum HR brazenly drive mis-killings before (I forget which game but I could find it if needed). Scum HR is filth and would totally behave in the way we're witnessing here. I commit right now that I will not join any wagon that has HR on it today.

[Vecna]

Bo is so scum with Jamie

And they have day chat? lol

Maybe he's mad at his team for not picking day chat

hah

So reading EoD, I'm interested to know why @ghug was so keen to pull the votes off of Flum post-claim there. There seems to be an excellent reason why Flum's death was actually great (as there is now a very strong chance we have a second Spirit thanks to the Backup), so Flum's claim probably should have *increased* the reasons to vote him.

This is strange though. HR being happy about a 2nd spirit potential why earlier he was so adamant scum were quite likely to have picked the backup.

In conclusion, the majority of responses included some form of town telling, so I think some of these responses include fake town tells. In my opinion, some of the more questionable of these responses were those of seth, Hamilton, ghug, kgray, and bo_sox.

Since Bozo got killed, I also find it quite possibly he has at least 2 scum nailed in there. There mustve been something for them to select him amongst the group of secondary targets unlikely to be doctored.

@bo_sox
@Chaqa
@dargorygel
@Hamilton
@HR
@Maniac
@Vecna

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

I don't know, because I have only glanced at the setup. I know the mafia pick some roles out of a hat and recruit someone. I know they have money or some shit to do things with. I would probably have recruited someone who obvtowned during the pregame, which from my perspective excludes Jamie, ghug, and Vecna, and gone into major debt to get some fancy toys assuming that we can all lurk our way to not dying D1 (which means that Chaqa isn't on my team).

Lol, as if you'd be the one giving Flum advice.

Daychat is also not a given.

Try again.

Day chat is a given if the mafia is even remotely intelligent.

Can I assume you read the setup sometime between these 2 posts?

Bozo was also heavily focussing on Bo.

Bo also responded quite odd when I stated blankly that he was the one I wouldve recruited, almost seeming ruffled.

[Hamilton Brian]

My head!

I am doing some reconsidering. Though still suspicious of teacon (or teacup as they've affectionately been dubbed in these pages), I'm going to offer the benefit of the doubt.

I think I am more perturbed with HR for not answering a fairly direct question. I don't know if they're purposely being evasive or if they've got some sort of role they're playing.

##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

[Jamiet99uk]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

[rdrivera2005]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

[Hamilton Brian]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

But if we fix just on their not answering the simple question, "Why kgray," what's preventing them from telling us. If there is something they spotted that confirms kgray is mafia, don't they owe it to town to put it out there?

[BunnyGo]

No.

If anything it displays consistency with his desire to claim his role yesterday. He's used to a mindset where PRs can claim to clear themselves and nothing has broken him of that yet, which actually pushes him more towards town for me.

OK, I got to here. But I actually had the opposite read here. Seth is very straightforward as scum. He has now lined up his "defense". It goes "but look at my role guys!! I can't be scum, I chose this role specially for this defense, aren't you going to let me use it?"

Which brings to mind, are there any roles scum would never choose at all?

OK, it's late. I'll pick up here tomorrow.

We were talking about Jamie here.

Ah, I see that now...

[BunnyGo]

##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet

@ghug, this means he townreads Jamie?