M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Maniac]

##vote Jamie

I should elaborate. My case against Jamie is that he asked teacon7 who he thought was pushing a MIS-KILL on him. How would Jamie know? If Jamie flips scum, teacon is clear.

Flum has said he has picked up a Jamie scum tell and when questioned by Ghug as to how confident he is in that tell he has responded with 4 out of 5.

All aboard choo-choo

Thanks for the translation. Does Jamie making a mistake a page or two after the miskill quote (where he assumes the fruit vendor is town even though it could be either alignment) factor into your decision?

I hadn’t picked up on the full significance of the pg85 exchanges between you and Jamie. But having re-read, it does add some weight to the case against Jamie yes. He will no doubt argue confusion.

[seth24c]

Sorry for another wall of dense catch-up text. Not sure what's going on with him at the moment but we need a little more substance than what we've got so far from HR. ##vote HR

[seth24c]

I should elaborate. My case against Jamie is that he asked teacon7 who he thought was pushing a MIS-KILL on him. How would Jamie know? If Jamie flips scum, teacon is clear.

Flum has said he has picked up a Jamie scum tell and when questioned by Ghug as to how confident he is in that tell he has responded with 4 out of 5.

All aboard choo-choo

Thanks for the translation. Does Jamie making a mistake a page or two after the miskill quote (where he assumes the fruit vendor is town even though it could be either alignment) factor into your decision?

I hadn’t picked up on the full significance of the pg85 exchanges between you and Jamie. But having re-read, it does add some weight to the case against Jamie yes. He will no doubt argue confusion.

To me it could easily go either way. Town or scum player gets flustered or in a hurry and makes a couple mistakes. His other play has been tough to sort for me but leans town.

[ghug]

I've never been so tempted to sheep a clear.

[Maniac]

@seth @ Ghug

Case against Jamie

Clear flum has picked up a strong tell
I think he knows Teacon will be a mis-kill
If he flips scum the Fruit Vender is likely town
If he flips scum teacon is clear
We can re-look at D1 voting
The thread is much more readable -

I can’t see any better candidates

[rdrivera2005]

I've never been so tempted to sheep a clear.

I understand your feeling. What the 4 Jamiet votes mean, I don't remember your codes.

[Maniac]

I've never been so tempted to sheep a clear.

I understand your feeling. What the 4 Jamiet votes mean, I don't remember your codes.

Ghug asked Flum how strong he thought his scum tell on Jamie was. Voting once for Jamie being weak, voting 5 times for Jamie being super strong.

[damo666]

I've never been so tempted to sheep a clear.

I understand your feeling. What the 4 Jamiet votes mean, I don't remember your codes.

Ghug asked Flum how strong he thought his scum tell on Jamie was. Voting once for Jamie being weak, voting 5 times for Jamie being super strong.

I don't have a 4/5 strength scumread on anyone so theoretically I should sheep Flum but I kinda townread Jamie so I'm in a bit of a quandary.

I'll leave my vote on teacup at the moment but if anyone can provide a strong nonFlum reason to vote Jamie do please tell.

The HR wagon is also of interest but I'll wait and see his response.

I don't really get the kgray votes. She seems pretty towny to me.

[Vecna]

On one hand, I'd expect town ghug to play better, less jumping at shadows and more focused on effective gameplay even if the answers aren't immediately apparent. On the other hand, I'd expect scum ghug to play better, controlling the narrative from a distance and allowing the town to manipulate one another with some subtle nudging in the direction he wants them to go. Here I see neither.

Ghug, are you town playing badly? I never thought I'd see the day.

just randomly browsing to see how people reacted to my drunk shit from last night (boring really, boo) and then my eye caught this post.

this is such a post designed by scum to try and appear solving, holy dogwhistle on a parrot

##vote bo_sox

[Vecna]

Goddamn awkward crosspost.

Bunny, I don't know why that was directed to me, but I'm glad you're at least outwardly okay.

Weren't you the one asking if I'd worry about anyone missing more than expected?

if bo is scum, this post partner-clears bunny also. not a fabricated interaction when people go "wait didnt you ask me x?"

[Vecna]

Is that based on the post they made that you referenced or other things (and if so, like what)?

And my comment about HR was a bit colloquial, as in, "I'm going to be pretty suspicious of HR if they don't show up soon and start presenting some info." It was off-handed, but they are on my list.

As indicated by me calling them vibes it’s nothing concrete yet. But kgray going back and forth with ghug and jamie made me feel like she was trying to make them suspicious of each other. There were also moments where I thought she was acting pretty town but especially since rdr gave her a pass for her vote for flum and then scumread me and teacon for it I’ve been a little more suspect of both of them.

Man...I gotta play like this more. It makes the hunting feel easier. Seth shows up, posts WALLS of dense texts saying "waaaa? me?!?!?" and then promptly shifts to meaningless dense analysis. ##vote seth based on reading to here. Will see what happens next (I saw teacon is leading with kgray 2nd based on the ghug +Flum vote. Looking forward to seeing why)

bunny, why was this analysis dense to you?

I havent read most of the game, im 70 pages behind, and even from that 1 post you quoted from seth he's instantly a townread for me.

[Vecna]

As indicated by me calling them vibes it’s nothing concrete yet. But kgray going back and forth with ghug and jamie made me feel like she was trying to make them suspicious of each other. There were also moments where I thought she was acting pretty town but especially since rdr gave her a pass for her vote for flum and then scumread me and teacon for it I’ve been a little more suspect of both of them.

Man...I gotta play like this more. It makes the hunting feel easier. Seth shows up, posts WALLS of dense texts saying "waaaa? me?!?!?" and then promptly shifts to meaningless dense analysis. ##vote seth based on reading to here. Will see what happens next (I saw teacon is leading with kgray 2nd based on the ghug +Flum vote. Looking forward to seeing why)

Well I mean it may feel easier but the results are what counts right? I'm sorry to hear that my walls of dense text and meaningless dense analysis don't do it for you. Do you mind to send me your contact information so I can put you as a reference?

Another glaring example of a post that should make seth lock-town to people. This is just a top-notch example of him overextending into believing his analysis was fine and shittalking bunny for criticizing it.

[Vecna]

Finally got some minor motivation to catch up.

Will try to post it in giant walls to not mess up the current thread topics too much and add a ton of pages.

Correct. I think bozo knows there are 4 scum.

That's based on their use of 3 other players when questioning Jamie, right? Is this Bozo slipping?

My sense of Bozo as a player is they dive so deeply into mechanics as town. I somewhat feel that's what they're starting to do here. I also find them too careful and parsed with what they say. Probably the worst question to send their way is a closed question.

Bozo, why did you settle on the number 3 when suggesting scum partners?

HB is feeling really surface so far. No spicy takes. Just being present and skating by. If this continues he is a prime scum possibility.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I would probably go:
Restless spirit
Odd-Night Tracker
Fruit vendor (the give the maf money? I think I read that somewhere?)
Double voter (provided the vote works more than once)

Frankly, the biggest reason is a don't like roles with limited uses, I'd be scared to use them until it's too late.

Important note, I did not do the math for this, I don't know how much debt it is, it may be bad.

Interesting to note that Macca realized the importance of the restless spirit. It very well mightve been an option that was discussed a lot in the scum chat, because if you think about it....the restless spirit is almost as valuable as an extra teammember if a scum member is to die early. Town will have to dance around it all game, resulting in worse wagons, worse EoD information. A scumvote that cannot be removed with extra upside. And much cheaper than the extra member.

Its a good thing scum were dummies. I probably wouldve gone into debt and taken both.

Those who've played with Macca, is he crafty enough to fake this townslip?

Macca uses they/them pronouns, and if we hadn't been talking about the number of people on the scumteam then I'd say no, and they're certainly town, but since it's been in discussion I suppose there's a *slight* chance it's fake.

Who are you, and when has kgray ever written a post exactly what I was thinking?

plenty of times when she was scum? Odd post since you should be the main person to know that very well.

Ghug is Bozo's official press secretary.

What do you make of this fact?

Actually, kgray answer that question first. Then Jamie can.

Jamie's sarcasm aside, I do think you're being overly defensive of bozo and I don't like it. Reminds me of how you claimed there's no way I could have scumslipped last game.

good point made here though. First hint of a townpost from Kgray

Macca uses they/them pronouns, and if we hadn't been talking about the number of people on the scumteam then I'd say no, and they're certainly town, but since it's been in discussion I suppose there's a *slight* chance it's fake.

Who are you, and when has kgray ever written a post exactly what I was thinking?

Oh god. I'm trying so hard to not auto-scumread you this game, don't make it harder by suddenly being nicer to me.

and again one of her minor towntells here

Have you figured it out yet?

I think it's that there a 5 scumteam members? Does that include the recruit?

Now this feels forced

townpost from bunny

@Ghug: Who does Bozo currently scumread, and why?

ROFL. OK, town points for jamie.

For making a joke?

for being proud of being so aware of whats going on, obviously



-------------------------------------------

thoughts after p35 (and some current page reading):

town:
Rdrivera, jamiet, Seth,

probably town:
Kgray, Damo?, Bunny

Looking not so great:
Bo, HB, Macca (depending on whether he continues to actually participate or whether he keeps leaning on that slip/forced thing)

[Vecna]

How could rivera possibly have been obvtown already?

This doesn't clear him.

hey, if you can make the argument why scum would spent points to paint a giant bullseye on Rdrivera when he's not dead yet D3, be my guest.

Vecna if you think rdr was already obvtown why do you think it was unlikely that he would have been recruited?

Fully possible, but theres a bunch of other people id feel are much more likely to be the vote for a recruit by any 3 player scumteam. Regardless, just observe his play and itll all become clear.

##vote Bo - There may come a time when town need to count on players who can count. Also he hasn't yet made me a admin so obviously has no sense.

And this is the reason maniac switched his vote. Maniac is bo your top scumread?

I think Ghug is becoming my top scum read. He’s doing something/not doing something that I’m suspicious of. I want to see if he continues to do/not do it for a bit longer before I vote for him.

such posts I feel are also usually a thing that comes from town. Maniac has been having a pretty nice vibe this game. not sure its town indicative, but at least im feeling ill be getting more on the same page with him this game.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I would probably go:
Restless spirit
Odd-Night Tracker
Fruit vendor (the give the maf money? I think I read that somewhere?)
Double voter (provided the vote works more than once)

Frankly, the biggest reason is a don't like roles with limited uses, I'd be scared to use them until it's too late.

Important note, I did not do the math for this, I don't know how much debt it is, it may be bad.

This almost feels like overplaying the “didn't think about it” card.

Seth just continues to call out all the right things. slot is locktown. will never ever vote him this game. Its kinda nice he has learned to be even more blatant town since last game.

[Vecna]

fuck I just realized something

##call gm: can the universal backup inherit the power from the restless spirit?

Thatd be really really bad if scum managed to get their hands on that

(sorry if this was discussed already)

[Vecna]

Regardless, optimal mafia strategy by far is this:

Recruit
take 3 roles out of these 4: Tracker 1, Tracker 2, Universal backup, Diarist

Give a useless town bulletproof N1 to offset the point imbalance (or do the white flag shit if you have skilled players so you have some points leftover for roleblocks or w/e)

All this nonsense of hunting in the low point roles is -bad-. Those are likely not what mafia have.

Just imagine it like this: Scum have low numbers. They need a way to navigate through the PR minefield. They need ways to deal with 2 doctors, 2 trackers, the diarist and other shit that can find them.

If they take the trackers and diarist for themselves, they cannot be found AND they have the tools to find the doctors easily.

Unless scum are completely ignorant, ^ this is the strategy they likely went with.

[Vecna]

the NK on bozo also likely implies they were trying to dodge both doctors

[Vecna]

continued catchup

@damo
What did i learn from my vote-request?

What I HOPED to learn will not come out till later in the game. I expect that scum would not bus each other during that early phase. So as scum are revealed, we might have some more deductive material.

Darg. I cannot read darg. But he feels like artificial scum yet again

I'll change my vote from HR, since it was only there because he surprised me by his silence.

I am going to pick a low hanging fruit, though. Low posters early on are in my scum pool.

Chaqa also had some odd things going on D1. He needs some chipotle, or he is scum.

##VOTE CHAQA

Ditto. so over-explanatory over basic things. Trying to sound good. He is totally the moscowfleet of this game, aint he?

I have darg Jamie and rdr as my top townies at the mo.

Why darg though? Help me see your thoughts mr damo

Wow. Good for you.

Is Jamie trying to pocket you?

Nah. Way too elaborate.

Damo is really saying a lot of things im feeling and thinking this game. wtf? That never happens. The weird feeling continues.

Ok I'm caught up.

Thoughts:

Ghug is annoying and was using a lie to try to push my wagon, so my question remains, is he scum, or bad town?

Teacon is being super weird and even though I didn't find Bozo's survey a useful idea in the first place, Teacon's response to it was very puzzling indeed and I'd like Teacon to explain this.

Fluminator advocating a mass claim, in this setup, because he claims he's desperate to find the Tree Stump, is very suspect. I do not see how outing everyone's role to the Mafia is anything other than a dreadful idea. Is Fluminator scum, or a crazy person?

This post gives me a sort of bad feeling though. Almost like its Jamiet trying to force through his town meta. Might not mean shit since I have those feelings always when he's town as well, but I have to make the mental note.

@bo_sox
@Chaqa
@dargorygel
@Hamilton
@HR
@Maniac
@Vecna

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

I hadn't put much thought into it, but I would probably do something dumb like going super far negative to get really good roles and a fouth member and day chat and stuff. High risk, High reward.

What's funnny is, I was thinking and I KNEW you would be doing some crazy meta-mechanical-analysis of the pregame purchases lol

First time im seeing a chaqa post. And he can go on the scum list straight away.

Hmmm
This is odd.
When did I say I wanted to vote for him?
I mean, I AM considering it. It seems a better place to rest my vote than on Chaqa's non-posting with slight alibi...

I inferred it from you saying that his behaviour was suspect, and I provided some emphasis because I want you to vote for him.

I am sitting here about to leave the interweb world for awhile... I do think that Fluminator is a good kill, today.
And I should not let the fact that you followed me onto chaqa be a deterrent from me following my own thougts, even though someone is bound to accuse me of sheeping.

I also recall that when I went to sleep, flum had a wagon... and then this morning his wagon seemed to have turned into unvotes. I looked for a claim or something, but I can not find it. If I have missed a reason why everyone bailed, let me know. I will try to check in later.
##VOTE FLUMINATOR

im in my tunnel I guess. This in hindsight feels like....such a bad bad reasoning? Someone was voted and then unvoted? So because there was no claim that makes them scummier during d1? what?

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

Because I am absolutely unclear on much and I think a lot of the ideas are ludicrous (a la Fruit Vendor; how is that a helpful enterprise?). However, given the White Flag offers 20 additional credits, I'd choose that, recruit another. I'm not sure after that.

Recruit for 80 and quasi sell it back for 20 eh? I hope you are scum with Macca.

its a completely viable tactic. You only lose the benefit if you somehow dont manage to win before you lose 3 members. Based purely on intuiting id say scum win way more often by just sweeping or semi-sweeping with 1 bus than by their last member delivering it.

[Vecna]

@bo_sox
@Chaqa
@dargorygel
@Hamilton
@HR
@Maniac
@Vecna

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

I hadn't put much thought into it, but I would probably do something dumb like going super far negative to get really good roles and a fouth member and day chat and stuff. High risk, High reward.

What's funnny is, I was thinking and I KNEW you would be doing some crazy meta-mechanical-analysis of the pregame purchases lol

I hope you are scum with HBrian and Macca

@damo, are you being deflective or spurious?

Very interesting that this post of damo attracted HB's attention

[dargorygel]

I agree with Maniac's presentation of what we can learn.
##JAMIET99UK