M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[ghug]

Seems like my mission has been accomplished.

##VOTE Maniac

What mission?

Scooping up the field mice and bopping them on the head.

[Jamiet99uk]

HR I guess? Flum's dead, Durga quit, and kgray is scum, so there's not much left.

So you are scared of Hellenic Riot, who you are currently voting with.

You'll note that HR's vote on Kgray, which you followed, was made with no explanation, and when challenged to *give* an explanation, HR refused to do so.

What do you make of that? Scary stuff, huh?!?

I'm sure he'll be scary eventually.

Yes but since you are voting with him, I'm asking you what you make of his behaviour?

He started the Kgray wagon without any evidence, and when challenged to explain his vote, he chose not to do so. He's acting like a white cop who saw a black man in a well-off neighbourhood.

You're on that wagon with HR so I'm asking you to comment on HR's behaviour.

Also, you said you'd sheep Flum. Why did you decide not to do that? Do you townread Bo now?

[BunnyGo]

I’m not getting good vibes from kgray so far this game.

Is that based on the post they made that you referenced or other things (and if so, like what)?

And my comment about HR was a bit colloquial, as in, "I'm going to be pretty suspicious of HR if they don't show up soon and start presenting some info." It was off-handed, but they are on my list.

As indicated by me calling them vibes it’s nothing concrete yet. But kgray going back and forth with ghug and jamie made me feel like she was trying to make them suspicious of each other. There were also moments where I thought she was acting pretty town but especially since rdr gave her a pass for her vote for flum and then scumread me and teacon for it I’ve been a little more suspect of both of them.

Man...I gotta play like this more. It makes the hunting feel easier. Seth shows up, posts WALLS of dense texts saying "waaaa? me?!?!?" and then promptly shifts to meaningless dense analysis. ##vote seth based on reading to here. Will see what happens next (I saw teacon is leading with kgray 2nd based on the ghug +Flum vote. Looking forward to seeing why)

[BunnyGo]

Yes I got that, I was just having a sudden rush of shit to the brain.

Scumslip? This one is tempting if nothing else than because you seemed to be assuming from the start that the fruit vendor was town.

No.

If anything it displays consistency with his desire to claim his role yesterday. He's used to a mindset where PRs can claim to clear themselves and nothing has broken him of that yet, which actually pushes him more towards town for me.

OK, I got to here. But I actually had the opposite read here. Seth is very straightforward as scum. He has now lined up his "defense". It goes "but look at my role guys!! I can't be scum, I chose this role specially for this defense, aren't you going to let me use it?"

Which brings to mind, are there any roles scum would never choose at all?

OK, it's late. I'll pick up here tomorrow.

[Hellenic Riot]

On Page 74 Hellenic Riot naked voted for Kgray, no reason at all offered.

Hamilton asked him about it and this was his response:

Why? Over D1 and N1, their name never crossed your lips. Why now?

A lot of names haven't crossed my lips, and I don't think I've given any reads on any that have

This didn't explain the "why" part of the vote.
I pressed HR on this, but he disappeared and did not answer:

A lot of names haven't crossed my lips, and I don't think I've given any reads on any that have

Could you answer the first part of the question, instead of just the second part?

15 pages of absence followed, and then HR reappeared and briefly got involved in the Fruit Vendor discussion:

I don't see why the Fruit Vendor would ever use their ability as town.

Being tracked to someone that isn't the kill is a pretty good thing, particularly if there's only one scum left.

Still no explanation for the Kgray vote, and still avoiding answering questions about it.

During N1, Hellenic Riot did not mention Kgray at all.
During D1, Hellenic Riot did not mention Kgray at all.

Something is not right here.

##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

Hi Jamie

[ghug]

Scumslip? This one is tempting if nothing else than because you seemed to be assuming from the start that the fruit vendor was town.

No.

If anything it displays consistency with his desire to claim his role yesterday. He's used to a mindset where PRs can claim to clear themselves and nothing has broken him of that yet, which actually pushes him more towards town for me.

OK, I got to here. But I actually had the opposite read here. Seth is very straightforward as scum. He has now lined up his "defense". It goes "but look at my role guys!! I can't be scum, I chose this role specially for this defense, aren't you going to let me use it?"

Which brings to mind, are there any roles scum would never choose at all?

OK, it's late. I'll pick up here tomorrow.

We were talking about Jamie here.

[ghug]

So you are scared of Hellenic Riot, who you are currently voting with.

You'll note that HR's vote on Kgray, which you followed, was made with no explanation, and when challenged to *give* an explanation, HR refused to do so.

What do you make of that? Scary stuff, huh?!?

I'm sure he'll be scary eventually.

Yes but since you are voting with him, I'm asking you what you make of his behaviour?

He started the Kgray wagon without any evidence, and when challenged to explain his vote, he chose not to do so. He's acting like a white cop who saw a black man in a well-off neighbourhood.

You're on that wagon with HR so I'm asking you to comment on HR's behaviour.

Also, you said you'd sheep Flum. Why did you decide not to do that? Do you townread Bo now?

I don't mind HR's play yet. I will in a day or two if he doesn't change.

I never said I'd sheep Flum. He's sheeping me.

[Fluminator]

##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet

[Fluminator]

##Vote kgray

[Maniac]

I don't know of any reason for Maniac to say we should kill Rivera before too long that is not due to Rivera being vanilla. Even if it's because the assumption is that mafia would NK that role, the case for Rivera's death is still tied to his role. How is what you're saying different?

The closest he gets is here:

We don't need the numbers. But Rdriveria needs to be town jesus and lead to to a scum {REDACTED} D2 or we'll have to kill him D3. Sound harsh, but he is likely to die before end game anyway. If he is scum and we kill him it will emphasize that Mafia have recruited I think.

I'm not really defending Maniac on this. But his nuance seems to place a greater weight on rivera's status as "needs to be fearkilled by someone," rather than his role.

That said, on iso/reread/searching for these quote, Maniac seems really hedgy. Like he's not reading, but repeating other people's arguments. Look at the way he's talking about people here:

People I won’t vote for today:

Rdriveria – I’m not even going to bother reading him. If I had to guess I’d say he is town. If he is, he knows it’s a team game and why we have to kill him before too long. Hopefully he’ll put in some spade work and leave us with some useful insights.

Bo_Sox – I’ve isolated and skimmed Bo and can’t find anything that jumps out as scummy to me.
Ghug – someone else I’ve isolated. He doesn’t appear out of character (apart from Haikus obviously), small question mark over whether he is super engaged, but I think I need more than that to vote for him today.
HR – Not contributing much. But could be a key player towards the end IIRC
Hamilton – seems to participate. Nothing shady
Dargorygel – seems engaged and trying to solve the puzzle.

People I need to look at more closely and could be persuaded to vote for:

Kgray, macca, Teacon7 (very slight town lean)

People I could vote for today:

Jamie, Damo, Bunny, Chaqa, Vecna

Jamie I’ve reassessed completely. I had him as fairly solid town because of his opening spat with me, but now I’m really not sure about him. His DK could help in D1 voter analysis. His participation seems to ebb and flow and lots of words as if spamming the thread to make t harder for us all, I know that can be his style. I just feel this game, he could be scum.
Of the other four, none of them would be a big loss to our efforts to solve the puzzle. All need to do more. This game will depend on people working harder I think.

This is like... darg/emc/bunny grade hedging/qualifications. I expect more from Maniac, especially after the excellent performances in such games as M52, or literally any other game he's been in. What's going on here?

@maniac, are you really running for parliament? Can I have a job?

Can anyone give me some insight as to what's going on in UK politics right now ?

Hi Teacon, no I’m not an MP. I’m involved in local Green Party politics. We’re a long way from getting substantial numbers of MPs. But like many places around the world people are more aware of environmental issues. UK politics is shifting to the right imho. The ‘moderate’ Tories were expelled last year and the left’s talisman has now been expelled from Labour who are shifting right as well.

It’s interesting your comments on my reads. When you’re held that mirror up, you’re absolutely right that in previous games I was more certain, got hold of a bone and pushed it doggedly. I was often wrong of course. Perhaps that has made me more measured and I try not to tunnel so much. There was a time I would have given Jamie a pass based on first interaction and then torn into Ghug. Now I’m more open minded. I don’t obsess about the thread either so do play be feel more than detail. Interesting how that has obviously affected my writing style.

It’s kind of you to say I’ve been good in the past but I was awful in my last game.

[Maniac]

##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet

##vote Jamie

[seth24c]

Last game seth was fairly in-and-out in terms of participation, and I don't think it's scummy to not type everything you're thinking in a stream-of-consciousness type way. But I am still concerned with the way seth talked about the scum mechanics. If bozo is correct that scum would try to force that they didn't know how that works, then seth is my top candidate.

So my post on bozo’s survey, which is quite similar to several others I might add, is your reason to have me at the top of your suspect list? Based on whether bozo is correct that scum would try to force a lack of knowledge on the setup? Even discounting that I am the focus of this post am not at all a fan of this post.

You are not my strongest scumread. I am saying that I think you are the most likely person to have faked not knowing the scum mechanics.

I'll definitely take that as a complement and also go ahead and apologize that I let you down.. I normally would take an interest in and try to do such things but I guess I just wasn't feeling up to it that day.

[Maniac]

##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet

##vote Jamie

I should elaborate. My case against Jamie is that he asked teacon7 who he thought was pushing a MIS-KILL on him. How would Jamie know? If Jamie flips scum, teacon is clear.

Flum has said he has picked up a Jamie scum tell and when questioned by Ghug as to how confident he is in that tell he has responded with 4 out of 5.

All aboard choo-choo

[seth24c]

I don't think this is scummy from HR. And I understand his concerns with Kgray, I am not feeling the obvtown vibes she usually gave when she is town. Plus, she is my top choice for a recruit....

This is the first time you express your concerns with kgray after claiming that teacon and I are your picks for the scummiest on the flum wagon. May be confirmation bias on my side but this feels like you trying to find an unrelated reason to scumread her after you gave her a pass at first.

What is your issue with Rivera's suspicion of me? Are you not scumreading me for similarly vague reasons?

My issue with it is that he seemed to have developed that suspicion pretty rapidly after I asked him why he was giving you a pass as one of his suspects on the flum wagon. rdr seemed to pivot on his read once it received some attention from my point of view.

[seth24c]

@Chaqa / Vecna / BunnyGo - Where are you guys?

##vote BunnyGo. Come back and play the game.

I'll do my best.

Up to this point, you didn't ask, but I've never seen Damo's banana and have no desire to.

I too get Vecna and Fluminator confused despite them having very different names. I think their posting style sometimes is similar. Vecna gets more excited than Flum, but when they are analytical and calm it is similar.

I agree with rdr's statement that the reason people voted teacon was not good. I also agree that to this point, Seth is still triggering my warnings, but I haven't put my finger on why.


Oh and @bo: I got in a car accident (well...got a ticket.)

Maybe I'm missing something but rdr voted teacon day 1 and rdr still had teacon as a scumread until recently (maybe that changed?) what time period are you referring to that people voting teacon was not for a good reason?

[seth24c]

@Chaqa / Vecna / BunnyGo - Where are you guys?

##vote BunnyGo. Come back and play the game.

I'll do my best.

Up to this point, you didn't ask, but I've never seen Damo's banana and have no desire to.

I too get Vecna and Fluminator confused despite them having very different names. I think their posting style sometimes is similar. Vecna gets more excited than Flum, but when they are analytical and calm it is similar.

I agree with rdr's statement that the reason people voted teacon was not good. I also agree that to this point, Seth is still triggering my warnings, but I haven't put my finger on why.


Oh and @bo: I got in a car accident (well...got a ticket.)

Maybe I'm missing something but rdr voted teacon day 1 and rdr still had teacon as a scumread until recently (maybe that changed?) what time period are you referring to that people voting teacon was not for a good reason?

Also sorry I should have first said sorry about the crash and ticket, hope you are doing ok. Neither of those things are ever fun.

[seth24c]

Goddamn awkward crosspost.

Bunny, I don't know why that was directed to me, but I'm glad you're at least outwardly okay.

Weren't you the one asking if I'd worry about anyone missing more than expected?

I don't know what you're referring to but that doesn't mean I didn't say whatever it is.

Don't know if it was you who said it bo but someone was questioning bunny about why he was concerned for vecna since he hadn't posted in 12 hours or something. Asked if he would be worried about any other player in the same way I think?

[seth24c]

Is that based on the post they made that you referenced or other things (and if so, like what)?

And my comment about HR was a bit colloquial, as in, "I'm going to be pretty suspicious of HR if they don't show up soon and start presenting some info." It was off-handed, but they are on my list.

As indicated by me calling them vibes it’s nothing concrete yet. But kgray going back and forth with ghug and jamie made me feel like she was trying to make them suspicious of each other. There were also moments where I thought she was acting pretty town but especially since rdr gave her a pass for her vote for flum and then scumread me and teacon for it I’ve been a little more suspect of both of them.

Man...I gotta play like this more. It makes the hunting feel easier. Seth shows up, posts WALLS of dense texts saying "waaaa? me?!?!?" and then promptly shifts to meaningless dense analysis. ##vote seth based on reading to here. Will see what happens next (I saw teacon is leading with kgray 2nd based on the ghug +Flum vote. Looking forward to seeing why)

Well I mean it may feel easier but the results are what counts right? I'm sorry to hear that my walls of dense text and meaningless dense analysis don't do it for you. Do you mind to send me your contact information so I can put you as a reference?

[seth24c]

Scumslip? This one is tempting if nothing else than because you seemed to be assuming from the start that the fruit vendor was town.

No.

If anything it displays consistency with his desire to claim his role yesterday. He's used to a mindset where PRs can claim to clear themselves and nothing has broken him of that yet, which actually pushes him more towards town for me.

OK, I got to here. But I actually had the opposite read here. Seth is very straightforward as scum. He has now lined up his "defense". It goes "but look at my role guys!! I can't be scum, I chose this role specially for this defense, aren't you going to let me use it?"

Which brings to mind, are there any roles scum would never choose at all?

OK, it's late. I'll pick up here tomorrow.

Did you mean to put jamie where you put my name? I'm also not sure I understand the line where you claim jamie/me chose a role for defense?

[seth24c]

##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet
##Vote Jamiet

##vote Jamie

I should elaborate. My case against Jamie is that he asked teacon7 who he thought was pushing a MIS-KILL on him. How would Jamie know? If Jamie flips scum, teacon is clear.

Flum has said he has picked up a Jamie scum tell and when questioned by Ghug as to how confident he is in that tell he has responded with 4 out of 5.

All aboard choo-choo

Thanks for the translation. Does Jamie making a mistake a page or two after the miskill quote (where he assumes the fruit vendor is town even though it could be either alignment) factor into your decision?