M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[ghug]

@Ghug:

I am not hedging, I am giving honest answers to questions.

What do you make of the fact that Kgray is asking me lots of questions about you, but won't explain her own read on you despite me asking?

I find the questioning a little odd but don't find her not having answered the question yet that suspicious.

[ghug]

Ghug does not intend
On getting me killed today
Or he'd try harder

Ghug's reads early on
Are notoriously poor
Cool if you die though

[kgray]

First of all, just because someone has an inaccurate or poorly-argued scumread on me, that doesn't make them scum, it makes them wrong. Townies are often wrong.

Second of all, I think that town Ghug is more likely to tunnel someone based on loose instinct, and I am not sure that scum Ghug would be acting this way.

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

Yes, of course I agree that townies are wrong all the time, and poorly-reasoned reads isn't necessarily scummy.

But you've pointed out that he was pushing you based on a lie, not a poorly-argued point. That's not just tunneling. How does that not bother you more?

I hope you're being pretend accepting of this view for the purposes of questioning rather than actually buying it, because that would be dumb, and faux acceptance is just scummy.

I am trying to understand why Jamie is so sure that you're town even though he claims you are telling lies. That is very unlike the Jamie I know.

[bo_sox48]

You know, that actually is a good point given that Jamie and I just watched and were rather impressed by ghug fooling everyone and looking like the towniest player alive for 5 days straight.

[kgray]

I think he's less angrily aggressive. He still gets into the thick of things, but he doesn't try to lead kills on people he disagrees with. I said your meta read was wrong because I disagreed with your characterization of the early Flum vote as being an aggressive action.

It's not just the Flum vote, you were claiming that scum!Jamie tried to force a daykill of either town!ghug or town!Flum, and it wasn't even a situation where you and Flum were going at each other hard. I do think that would be an aggressive action.

[Jamiet99uk]

That is very unlike the Jamie I know.

Who are you to say that you know me?

What do you know of the suffering that I have endured, the peaks that I have crested, and all of the multi-faceted points of human existence in between?

You barely know me at all.

[teacon7]

Have you noticed that Flum isn't apparently making any attempts at communicating in code, either in the fashion you've suggested, or in Ghug's way? Could it be that the GM has told him that such things are not allowed?

I have noticed. I figure he's busy and not reading the thread.

##callGM - can vecna vote multiple times during the day?

[kgray]

@Ghug:

I am not hedging, I am giving honest answers to questions.

What do you make of the fact that Kgray is asking me lots of questions about you, but won't explain her own read on you despite me asking?

Dude chill. I'm not glued to my computer.

Hmm. I thought I'd posted my response to you before I caught up to you complaining about me not replying, but I guess I lost my post or something.

My read of ghug:

I didn't like his initial push on you for allegedly trying to make D1 Flum vs ghug. I don't think that's something that scum would do so it seemed like a really reachy reason for him to scumread you. After that, his reasons seemed like they were more and more forced. I find inauthentic reasons for reads to be extremely scummy, so I wasn't feeling good about ghug at all.

But I also just reread that initial exchange and realized that I missed a post where you doubled-down on your claim that it was *Flum's* idea to make the day Flum v ghug, not yours. I don't think Flum was trying to do that at all, so I can understand why ghug reacted to it the way he did. And now that I'm trying to ignore meta (because I don't even know if my opinion of your scum meta is accurate) I'm not as suspicious as I was about the reasons for his push.

So I did scumread him, but he's more null now. And I acknowledge that I'm hesitant to townread him after last game.

[TheMadMonarch]

1. I am abandoning that line of thought.

b) In this setup, unless you have reason to be sure about the alignment of a particular role, you should not be role-hunting, you should be scum-hunting.

Appreciate that, on both counts.

Macca, suspicious to you. Why?

Bunny, suspicious to you. Why?

Is this directed at me, or Jamie?

[TheMadMonarch]

The backup is the restless spirit, I believe.

I wouldn't think so. The spirit uses it charge on death, and the backup doesn't get roles with no charges left.

The role PM for the backup states that they get the powers of the first person eliminated, not the first person who is eliminated with powers. So even if they're not the spirit (if your interpretation is correct about that charge happening on death), they're not going to be Governor because bozo was eliminated second.

Universal Backup
You are the Universal Backup. You will assume the powers of the first person to be eliminated. If the person did not have powers, your ability does not trigger. If the role had charges, you gain the same amount of charges as the player had when they were eliminated. If the role had no charges when they were eliminated, you do not gain their role.

[ghug]

I think he's less angrily aggressive. He still gets into the thick of things, but he doesn't try to lead kills on people he disagrees with. I said your meta read was wrong because I disagreed with your characterization of the early Flum vote as being an aggressive action.

It's not just the Flum vote, you were claiming that scum!Jamie tried to force a daykill of either town!ghug or town!Flum, and it wasn't even a situation where you and Flum were going at each other hard. I do think that would be an aggressive action.

We disagree there, then. It's trying to jump on something that already exists rather than leading it yourself. Overeager, yes, but that's a different story.

[teacon7]

legit question: why did you post this if you ended up correcting yourself?

I asked him this question and he answered it.

Are you only selectively reading?

I'm responding sequentially, as I read through the thread to catch up. I did read your question like... right after I posted.

[teacon7]

So I'll put the question to you, since you seem to know so much about how the game is played: Why are you jumping on a one line sentence from SoD? How is this helping you get information on my alignment?

Because I turned your one liners into paragraphs, and in your paragraphs I can ask you more questions that keep you talking. You can, should, and just did do the same back to me.

I don't understand what you mean by an "in-game actionable model" or what you mean by a "pattern of commitments." Can you use terms that make sense? I graduated college, but that doesn't make me intelligent.

Reads lists are like weekly essays in college. Sometimes you're feeling it and you put effort into it; other times, it's a chore that you feel you have to do, and you do it halfassedly. Now there's 19 of us in the game. I do the same thing. Maniac does the same thing. Jamie does the same thing. Ghug does the same thing. Kgray does the same thing. If we're all town, and we're all doing something with 70% effort, then what's to say that scum dargorygel can't also give 70%, equal our effort, and blend into our group of halfasser townies?

I did not say that bozo's survey was useful. I, in fact, hate it, and I generally think bozo is bad at this game. I've made that quite clear in no less than a half dozen games, sometimes more rudely than I perhaps should. What I said is that bozo thought it was useful, and as a result, if you want his take on things, that's where you go. You don't say "boo hoo he didn't leave me a step-by-step cookbook of bozo recipes"; you go get the information you want and make whatever point you hoped he would make for him.

Haiku is awesome
You should not hate on haiku
Try to smile sometime
[/quote]

An "in game actionable model" means you're showing the logic (the model) by which you decide who to vote for (the action we can take). The logic for that model can be good/bad/otherwise. As I said before: I wanted bozo's reads because I wanted his holistic conclusions that lead towards voting, not just the limited conclusions of a survey. While you may have time to re-re-re read things in a game, other players don't. if you want to complain boo hoo about my comment, go right ahead. For my part, I wish you'd do reads at EoN. :) And I wish people, in general, reviewed their disagreements with people in light of a player's reads once death reveals their alignment.

"pattern of commitments" means that scum, in the course of their 70% effort, has to commit to lies. That's difficult because scum already knows the alignment of all the players (excepting games where there are other factions). when they read someone as town or scum, they have to fake it. Either way, they're hiding, not hunting. They're trying to escape. Doing reads lists, however trite, makes a papertrail (pixeltrail?) of conclusions that they have to explain. They can't just automatically scumread or townread someone for reasons they don't know. If they choose to bus, they have to explain it. And just like you're using a ridiculous pretext to get paragraphs from me, so too doing readslists means that scum has to give us those paragraphs. That's a greater chance they'll mess up, scumslip, contradict themselves, etc. And when they flip, I do think you get a non-zero amount of information from them (scum readslists are mostly wifom, but IME scum tend to hedge the hardest on their teammates because they don't want to come out with strong feelings for/against them, lest someone notices it). Readslists aren't magic, but they they're a threat to lazy scum.

[teacon7]

mmm. comment at the beginning of my last is messed up. Should have been quoting me, and then bo. sorry about that.

[teacon7]

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

You also genuinely have to understand that I have in the past had real problems with my short temper and my alcoholism, and since February in particular I have been taking genuine steps to be a calmer person. This game can bring out the very worst in me, and I am trying to ensure that does not happen.

One of the real downsides of this game is what the total realpolitik level press does to human interaction. Whether or not it's good, pushing people and getting them emotionally unbalanced is a legitimate strategy press-wise, but real life isn't a zero-sum zero-trust manipulative game of diplomacy/mafia/etc. This paragraph from jamiet has strong a2e, and I get why people are asking about a changing meta. Yet that's all suspicion from in the game, the mind-warp of realpolitik psych. Which is fun, but fwiw it's mildly corrosive to human empathy.

Alcohol is only good in self-aware moderation. Calm is better, and happier. Stick with this, it's a good thing.

So irrespective of his alignment in the entirely non-real game we're playing, I'm rooting for the real-life JamieT to stay on the path he's written here.

[teacon7]

##callGM:

Can a dead restless spirit (like, say, fluminator) vote multiple times in a given day ?

Can a universal backup become a restless spirit if the RS is DK's on D1?

[ghug]

So I'll put the question to you, since you seem to know so much about how the game is played: Why are you jumping on a one line sentence from SoD? How is this helping you get information on my alignment?

Because I turned your one liners into paragraphs, and in your paragraphs I can ask you more questions that keep you talking. You can, should, and just did do the same back to me.

I don't understand what you mean by an "in-game actionable model" or what you mean by a "pattern of commitments." Can you use terms that make sense? I graduated college, but that doesn't make me intelligent.

Reads lists are like weekly essays in college. Sometimes you're feeling it and you put effort into it; other times, it's a chore that you feel you have to do, and you do it halfassedly. Now there's 19 of us in the game. I do the same thing. Maniac does the same thing. Jamie does the same thing. Ghug does the same thing. Kgray does the same thing. If we're all town, and we're all doing something with 70% effort, then what's to say that scum dargorygel can't also give 70%, equal our effort, and blend into our group of halfasser townies?

I did not say that bozo's survey was useful. I, in fact, hate it, and I generally think bozo is bad at this game. I've made that quite clear in no less than a half dozen games, sometimes more rudely than I perhaps should. What I said is that bozo thought it was useful, and as a result, if you want his take on things, that's where you go. You don't say "boo hoo he didn't leave me a step-by-step cookbook of bozo recipes"; you go get the information you want and make whatever point you hoped he would make for him.

Haiku is awesome
You should not hate on haiku
Try to smile sometime

An "in game actionable model" means you're showing the logic (the model) by which you decide who to vote for (the action we can take). The logic for that model can be good/bad/otherwise. As I said before: I wanted bozo's reads because I wanted his holistic conclusions that lead towards voting, not just the limited conclusions of a survey. While you may have time to re-re-re read things in a game, other players don't. if you want to complain boo hoo about my comment, go right ahead. For my part, I wish you'd do reads at EoN. :) And I wish people, in general, reviewed their disagreements with people in light of a player's reads once death reveals their alignment.

"pattern of commitments" means that scum, in the course of their 70% effort, has to commit to lies. That's difficult because scum already knows the alignment of all the players (excepting games where there are other factions). when they read someone as town or scum, they have to fake it. Either way, they're hiding, not hunting. They're trying to escape. Doing reads lists, however trite, makes a papertrail (pixeltrail?) of conclusions that they have to explain. They can't just automatically scumread or townread someone for reasons they don't know. If they choose to bus, they have to explain it. And just like you're using a ridiculous pretext to get paragraphs from me, so too doing readslists means that scum has to give us those paragraphs. That's a greater chance they'll mess up, scumslip, contradict themselves, etc. And when they flip, I do think you get a non-zero amount of information from them (scum readslists are mostly wifom, but IME scum tend to hedge the hardest on their teammates because they don't want to come out with strong feelings for/against them, lest someone notices it). Readslists aren't magic, but they they're a threat to lazy scum.
[/quote]

Reads lists force townies to concoct opinions too, which makes everyone appear similarly scummy.

[ghug]

Oh look at me perpetuating the misquote.

[teacon7]

Reads lists force townies to concoct opinions too, which makes everyone appear similarly scummy.

Ennh... Having reasons for doing what you do... is not scummy.

Having to explain your reasons can even keep town honest with themselves.

Concocting reasons in order to put something by everyone's name is poor play and not helpful. Of course. But that's going to happen whether or not we do reads.

[Fluminator]

##Vote Bo_sox