M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Jamiet99uk]

Yes, of course I agree that townies are wrong all the time, and poorly-reasoned reads isn't necessarily scummy.

But you've pointed out that he was pushing you based on a lie, not a poorly-argued point. That's not just tunneling. How does that not bother you more?

He wasn't pushing me on the basis of the lie he told. It wasn't a lie about me, it was a lie about himself. It did bother me that he lied - that's why I've mentioned it several times. He has been tunnelling, for sure.

You are asking a lot of questions about Ghug. What is your read of him? Do you think he is scum?

[bo_sox48]

I like reads lists because it forces people (myself included) to focus on in-game actionable models, and commit to them. It leaves a pattern of commitments that can be useful later on. Data experiments that test subjective "what would you do if XYZ" (like bozo's) are great, but they're also easy to hide behind if he never really comes to actionable conclusions. Yeah, I could go read his whole thing, but like I said before, his survey results say "from this data I got XYZ, which is, as it turns out, inconclusive." Good science, medium-to-poor grade town citizenship.

Ultimately, scum hide in "looking like they're participating, but never really commit." other candidates for that include, but aren't limited to:
a) fancy sounding math
b) haiku
c) nitpicky pressure questions built on minutiae (seriously, what does getting a rise out of someone show you, data wise, about their alignment? I don't play that way so i don't get what people get out of it).
d) antagonizing the GM with rules-lawyering
e) getting bogged down in mechanics discussions.
...all of which could have some merit for town, but without coming to conclusions, are just the appearance of town motivation without its substance.

So I'll put the question to you, since you seem to know so much about how the game is played: Why are you jumping on a one line sentence from SoD? How is this helping you get information on my alignment?

Because I turned your one liners into paragraphs, and in your paragraphs I can ask you more questions that keep you talking. You can, should, and just did do the same back to me.

I don't understand what you mean by an "in-game actionable model" or what you mean by a "pattern of commitments." Can you use terms that make sense? I graduated college, but that doesn't make me intelligent.

Reads lists are like weekly essays in college. Sometimes you're feeling it and you put effort into it; other times, it's a chore that you feel you have to do, and you do it halfassedly. Now there's 19 of us in the game. I do the same thing. Maniac does the same thing. Jamie does the same thing. Ghug does the same thing. Kgray does the same thing. If we're all town, and we're all doing something with 70% effort, then what's to say that scum dargorygel can't also give 70%, equal our effort, and blend into our group of halfasser townies?

I did not say that bozo's survey was useful. I, in fact, hate it, and I generally think bozo is bad at this game. I've made that quite clear in no less than a half dozen games, sometimes more rudely than I perhaps should. What I said is that bozo thought it was useful, and as a result, if you want his take on things, that's where you go. You don't say "boo hoo he didn't leave me a step-by-step cookbook of bozo recipes"; you go get the information you want and make whatever point you hoped he would make for him.

Haiku is awesome
You should not hate on haiku
Try to smile sometime

[Hamilton Brian]

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

Are you implying that you're abandoning that line of thought or does the "right now" suggest that it's something that you're tucking away to pursue later?

Ghug suggested that I stop looking for the double voter as they're most likely town. Do you agree with that sentiment?

[Jamiet99uk]

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

Are you implying that you're abandoning that line of thought or does the "right now" suggest that it's something that you're tucking away to pursue later?

Ghug suggested that I stop looking for the double voter as they're most likely town. Do you agree with that sentiment?

1. I am abandoning that line of thought.

b) In this setup, unless you have reason to be sure about the alignment of a particular role, you should not be role-hunting, you should be scum-hunting.

[kgray]

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

Are you implying that Jamie is mellow in this game? I don't know of any scum appearance in which he was decidedly mellow. I don't remember which game it was, but in the last game I recall in which he was scum and I was playing, he was pointed and aggressive in basically everything he did, startlingly so. Though he got caught for it, so maybe he has changed since.

Random question - what do you make of Maniac's move to Flum?

I think he's been pretty mellow, yes. Do you not?

I very distinctly remember thinking that scum!Jamie in M1010 (which you were also in) was less aggressive than in his town games. He only got caught because Rivera had a guilty scan on him - and Rivera basically had to out himself as the cop to get Jamie daykilled.

That's the only time I've seen scum!Jamie, and ghug has already said he thinks my meta opinion of Jamie is wrong. If you also think this then I'll try to ignore meta for my read of him.

I am not sure what to make of Maniac's move to Flum. He said he didn't have time to catch up and didn't want to vote Jamie for unexplained reasons. I'd like to know what those were, since he originally said he didn't think Jamie was on his team (granted, that was really early in the game). And on the surface I don't like the statement that he'd prefer ghug over Flum because it could be scum trying to distance from a town flip, but he did say earlier that ghug was becoming his top scum read so I don't think that part is bothering me too much.

[bo_sox48]

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

What do you mean, "over-explained"? I was just keeping you informed of my availability, as your diligent co-GM. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, I appreciated it. But saying more than you have to to satisfy the minimum necessary doesn't seem to be a thing reserved for you as scum.

[Hamilton Brian]

So I am a little mystified. I'm reading an exchange between ghug and teacon. Ghug asserts that the double vote is only revealed at EoD; seems reasonable enough.

Nevermind; the discrepancy is resolved in the final vote count. Kudos to whomever noticed that first. I certainly didn't.

It isn't reflected on the bot page, so that's a good thing to be mindful of going forward.

legit question: why did you post this if you ended up correcting yourself?

Legit answer: Because there was a conclusion to it that someone else might benefit from.

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

What do you mean, "over-explained"? I was just keeping you informed of my availability, as your diligent co-GM. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, I appreciated it. But saying more than you have to to satisfy the minimum necessary doesn't seem to be a thing reserved for you as scum.

Ah, I see.

Teacon telling us that he thinks about you when he is in the bath, that's over-explaining.

[kgray]

Teacon also didn't respond to my polite question. He came on and responded to bo, perhaps because bo asked more aggressively? hmmm... at any rate... This is sort of the second time teacon avoided my question, which while not the most profound question, (like "why was Serenity cancelled?") was important enough for me to ask again.

The Firefly series was cancelled... because the world is broken, as humanity is unjust, having fallen into original sin. Or because it ran on Syfy against Friends, which is really just evidence of the previous statement. Does that seem right to you?

I didn't answer your question because I was on the can and only had time for one reply before dinner+bedtime with kids.

Also they aired the episodes out of order

[Hamilton Brian]

...and continuing because I thought I had finished my thought, but there's more...as my experience continues to evolve, I do like to see the express and explicit connections written out. A lot of things get posted that I squint my eye at, ask, "What the fuck am I missing," and then miss out on because I don't want to pepper the pages with question after question. But little crumbs of though, evidence, conclusion versus innuendo? Happy Brian.

[ghug]

Returning from EOD = after the day ended?



What were your expectations for Jamie upon his appearance late in the day, and how did he meet them?

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

I'll comment on this.

I think that I tend to defend myself most aggressively when I am a VT, because as a VT, I can't get votes off me late in EoD by claiming my role. This game is kind of a "role madness" setup where everyone in the town has a role of some kind which may prove useful. I was willing to claim my role if needed when I returned for EoD1, but thankfully for me personally, that proved not to be necessary. It is a shame that it turned out to be a T vs T EoD.

I can also be quite aggressive in my own defence when I feel I am being pushed by someone who is making up bullshit about me or otherwise actively lying to try to get me daykilled. It still bothers me somewhat that Ghug told a lie yesterday while trying to get a wagon moving on me (not at EoD, but earlier), yet I do think Ghug could be town.

You also genuinely have to understand that I have in the past had real problems with my short temper and my alcoholism, and since February in particular I have been taking genuine steps to be a calmer person. This game can bring out the very worst in me, and I am trying to ensure that does not happen.

Look at Jamie hedging on his strongest townread. The lie I told was very very obvious.

If this really is just a new, calmer you, I'm happy you've found a way to feel better, and I'm sorry I'm scumreading you for it.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Ghug:

I am not hedging, I am giving honest answers to questions.

What do you make of the fact that Kgray is asking me lots of questions about you, but won't explain her own read on you despite me asking?

[bo_sox48]

I think he's been pretty mellow, yes. Do you not?

I very distinctly remember thinking that scum!Jamie in M1010 (which you were also in) was less aggressive than in his town games. He only got caught because Rivera had a guilty scan on him - and Rivera basically had to out himself as the cop to get Jamie daykilled.

That's the only time I've seen scum!Jamie, and ghug has already said he thinks my meta opinion of Jamie is wrong. If you also think this then I'll try to ignore meta for my read of him.

I am not sure what to make of Maniac's move to Flum. He said he didn't have time to catch up and didn't want to vote Jamie for unexplained reasons. I'd like to know what those were, since he originally said he didn't think Jamie was on his team (granted, that was really early in the game). And on the surface I don't like the statement that he'd prefer ghug over Flum because it could be scum trying to distance from a town flip, but he did say earlier that ghug was becoming his top scum read so I don't think that part is bothering me too much.

I don't really do the meta thing with any degree of seriousness, so how you treat meta is up to you. People change game by game, day by day, etc.

I was thinking similarly about Maniac. He joke-voted for Jamie, then joke-voted rdrivera 24 hours into the game, and then joke-voted me shortly thereafter. What I mean to say is that while some of us waited on our role PMs to really start taking things seriously, he waited for his role PM and then kept not taking things seriously. It was weird.

Maniac, maybe you'll have a better answer than kgray. Why a) did you move to Flum instead of teacon of Jamie, and why did you wait until the deciding vote had been cast to do so; and b) why didn't you spend any of the last 14 hours after ghug became your top scumread doing jack to get a wagon going against him?

[Hamilton Brian]

1. I am abandoning that line of thought.

b) In this setup, unless you have reason to be sure about the alignment of a particular role, you should not be role-hunting, you should be scum-hunting.

Appreciate that, on both counts.

Macca, suspicious to you. Why?

Bunny, suspicious to you. Why?

[ghug]

Why do you townread ghug? What has he done that's townie enough to make up for the bad reasons he's given for scumreading you?

First of all, just because someone has an inaccurate or poorly-argued scumread on me, that doesn't make them scum, it makes them wrong. Townies are often wrong.

Second of all, I think that town Ghug is more likely to tunnel someone based on loose instinct, and I am not sure that scum Ghug would be acting this way.

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

Yes, of course I agree that townies are wrong all the time, and poorly-reasoned reads isn't necessarily scummy.

But you've pointed out that he was pushing you based on a lie, not a poorly-argued point. That's not just tunneling. How does that not bother you more?

I hope you're being pretend accepting of this view for the purposes of questioning rather than actually buying it, because that would be dumb, and faux acceptance is just scummy.

[ghug]

I like reads lists because it forces people (myself included) to focus on in-game actionable models, and commit to them. It leaves a pattern of commitments that can be useful later on. Data experiments that test subjective "what would you do if XYZ" (like bozo's) are great, but they're also easy to hide behind if he never really comes to actionable conclusions. Yeah, I could go read his whole thing, but like I said before, his survey results say "from this data I got XYZ, which is, as it turns out, inconclusive." Good science, medium-to-poor grade town citizenship.

Ultimately, scum hide in "looking like they're participating, but never really commit." other candidates for that include, but aren't limited to:
a) fancy sounding math
b) haiku
c) nitpicky pressure questions built on minutiae (seriously, what does getting a rise out of someone show you, data wise, about their alignment? I don't play that way so i don't get what people get out of it).
d) antagonizing the GM with rules-lawyering
e) getting bogged down in mechanics discussions.
...all of which could have some merit for town, but without coming to conclusions, are just the appearance of town motivation without its substance.

So I'll put the question to you, since you seem to know so much about how the game is played: Why are you jumping on a one line sentence from SoD? How is this helping you get information on my alignment?

Because I turned your one liners into paragraphs, and in your paragraphs I can ask you more questions that keep you talking. You can, should, and just did do the same back to me.

I don't understand what you mean by an "in-game actionable model" or what you mean by a "pattern of commitments." Can you use terms that make sense? I graduated college, but that doesn't make me intelligent.

Reads lists are like weekly essays in college. Sometimes you're feeling it and you put effort into it; other times, it's a chore that you feel you have to do, and you do it halfassedly. Now there's 19 of us in the game. I do the same thing. Maniac does the same thing. Jamie does the same thing. Ghug does the same thing. Kgray does the same thing. If we're all town, and we're all doing something with 70% effort, then what's to say that scum dargorygel can't also give 70%, equal our effort, and blend into our group of halfasser townies?

I did not say that bozo's survey was useful. I, in fact, hate it, and I generally think bozo is bad at this game. I've made that quite clear in no less than a half dozen games, sometimes more rudely than I perhaps should. What I said is that bozo thought it was useful, and as a result, if you want his take on things, that's where you go. You don't say "boo hoo he didn't leave me a step-by-step cookbook of bozo recipes"; you go get the information you want and make whatever point you hoped he would make for him.

Haiku is awesome
You should not hate on haiku
Try to smile sometime

##VOTE bo

[bo_sox48]

Ghug does not intend
On getting me killed today
Or he'd try harder

[ghug]

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

Are you implying that Jamie is mellow in this game? I don't know of any scum appearance in which he was decidedly mellow. I don't remember which game it was, but in the last game I recall in which he was scum and I was playing, he was pointed and aggressive in basically everything he did, startlingly so. Though he got caught for it, so maybe he has changed since.

Random question - what do you make of Maniac's move to Flum?

I think he's been pretty mellow, yes. Do you not?

I very distinctly remember thinking that scum!Jamie in M1010 (which you were also in) was less aggressive than in his town games. He only got caught because Rivera had a guilty scan on him - and Rivera basically had to out himself as the cop to get Jamie daykilled.

That's the only time I've seen scum!Jamie, and ghug has already said he thinks my meta opinion of Jamie is wrong. If you also think this then I'll try to ignore meta for my read of him.

I am not sure what to make of Maniac's move to Flum. He said he didn't have time to catch up and didn't want to vote Jamie for unexplained reasons. I'd like to know what those were, since he originally said he didn't think Jamie was on his team (granted, that was really early in the game). And on the surface I don't like the statement that he'd prefer ghug over Flum because it could be scum trying to distance from a town flip, but he did say earlier that ghug was becoming his top scum read so I don't think that part is bothering me too much.

I think he's less angrily aggressive. He still gets into the thick of things, but he doesn't try to lead kills on people he disagrees with. I said your meta read was wrong because I disagreed with your characterization of the early Flum vote as being an aggressive action.

[ghug]

Teacon also didn't respond to my polite question. He came on and responded to bo, perhaps because bo asked more aggressively? hmmm... at any rate... This is sort of the second time teacon avoided my question, which while not the most profound question, (like "why was Serenity cancelled?") was important enough for me to ask again.

The Firefly series was cancelled... because the world is broken, as humanity is unjust, having fallen into original sin. Or because it ran on Syfy against Friends, which is really just evidence of the previous statement. Does that seem right to you?

I didn't answer your question because I was on the can and only had time for one reply before dinner+bedtime with kids.

Also they aired the episodes out of order

That's the one

[kgray]

@Ghug:

I am not hedging, I am giving honest answers to questions.

What do you make of the fact that Kgray is asking me lots of questions about you, but won't explain her own read on you despite me asking?

Dude chill. I'm not glued to my computer.