M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[kgray]

Well, Bozo's dead, that's sad.

The backup is now the Governor (probably, I don't think Bozo used the charge), so we probably have it still. (I wouldn't think scum would grab this, why not just take the role you want), (unless the recruit has it).

The backup is the restless spirit, I believe.

I wouldn't think so. The spirit uses it charge on death, and the backup doesn't get roles with no charges left.

The role PM for the backup states that they get the powers of the first person eliminated, not the first person who is eliminated with powers. So even if they're not the spirit (if your interpretation is correct about that charge happening on death), they're not going to be Governor because bozo was eliminated second.

[Hellenic Riot]

##vote kgray

Why? Over D1 and N1, their name never crossed your lips. Why now?

A lot of names haven't crossed my lips, and I don't think I've given any reads on any that have

[Jamiet99uk]

Do you mean what about Flum drew me to vote for him? Yeah it was more about having stronger feelings that Jamie was town. I didn't like the reasons Jamie was being pushed (including Flum's case) and especially when he returned from EOD I didn't see much that was different from town!Jamie.

Returning from EOD = after the day ended?

When I have seen town!Jamie on the block, he has fought harder to survive and has been much easier to read under pressure. Him disappearing now is really odd.

What were your expectations for Jamie upon his appearance late in the day, and how did he meet them?

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

I'll comment on this.

I think that I tend to defend myself most aggressively when I am a VT, because as a VT, I can't get votes off me late in EoD by claiming my role. This game is kind of a "role madness" setup where everyone in the town has a role of some kind which may prove useful. I was willing to claim my role if needed when I returned for EoD1, but thankfully for me personally, that proved not to be necessary. It is a shame that it turned out to be a T vs T EoD.

I can also be quite aggressive in my own defence when I feel I am being pushed by someone who is making up bullshit about me or otherwise actively lying to try to get me daykilled. It still bothers me somewhat that Ghug told a lie yesterday while trying to get a wagon moving on me (not at EoD, but earlier), yet I do think Ghug could be town.

You also genuinely have to understand that I have in the past had real problems with my short temper and my alcoholism, and since February in particular I have been taking genuine steps to be a calmer person. This game can bring out the very worst in me, and I am trying to ensure that does not happen.

[Jamiet99uk]

##vote kgray

Why? Over D1 and N1, their name never crossed your lips. Why now?

A lot of names haven't crossed my lips, and I don't think I've given any reads on any that have

Could you answer the first part of the question, instead of just the second part?

[Vecna]

ive had some busy ass days, and have some more private stuff thatll keep me busy tomorrow. Hopefully ill be able to do a catchup during the second part of d2

[teacon7]

Alright I'm back after putting kids to bed. time to catch up from where I left off.


@flum
@ghug
@all

I think we have a great opportunity here - we have a townclear. We can communicate with him. Flum's reads aren't automatically better because he's townclear, but we'd be stupid not to listen to what he says.

I don't really care how we communicate. My plan was more qualitative, ghug's is more direct. Either way, we want to give him the ability to speak with some degree of meaning to particular issues. The %%vote %%vOtE %%VOTE framework provides some degree of quality to what he's saying - he can comment "live" on how he's feeling about various people, though perhaps not particular posts. Asking direct questions means we'd have to figure out which question he's answering.

@flum vote me twice in a row for yes, 3x in a row for no, 4x in a row for "think about it more."

kinda feels like a robo-call to the underworld.

[teacon7]

Ghug IS pretty tunnelly... but I am not sure that is AI.
I was not roleblocked. Nor was i nightkilled.
@teacon... way back you and I had an interaction about the Princess Bride. It seems to me that you were already thinking way back then about possible crumbs. I can not see how a townie would be rationally concerned about crumbs back then. But I can see how scum would. Particularly because scum know which PRs to look for. Care to comment?

Sure. I was riffing off of the quote because I love the movie a great deal. Fezzik was at one point unemployed in greenland, then he ends up working for vicini of "wifom" fame, and then he worked on the fruit squad (or brute squad). In general I do look for crumbs (regardless of alignment) because I don't want to end up accidentially eliminating an important town role (like DKing the town doc because they were lurky and off meta, and I missed a clue). This time around I haven't really been looking for crumbs - idk if we even had our roles at that point, or how much point there would be to crumbing. Roles are somewhat tied to alignment in this setup, but not 100% like usual.

By the way, you'd make a wonderful dread pirate roberts.

[kgray]

Returning from EOD = after the day ended?



What were your expectations for Jamie upon his appearance late in the day, and how did he meet them?

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

I'll comment on this.

I think that I tend to defend myself most aggressively when I am a VT, because as a VT, I can't get votes off me late in EoD by claiming my role. This game is kind of a "role madness" setup where everyone in the town has a role of some kind which may prove useful. I was willing to claim my role if needed when I returned for EoD1, but thankfully for me personally, that proved not to be necessary. It is a shame that it turned out to be a T vs T EoD.

I can also be quite aggressive in my own defence when I feel I am being pushed by someone who is making up bullshit about me or otherwise actively lying to try to get me daykilled. It still bothers me somewhat that Ghug told a lie yesterday while trying to get a wagon moving on me (not at EoD, but earlier), yet I do think Ghug could be town.

You also genuinely have to understand that I have in the past had real problems with my short temper and my alcoholism, and since February in particular I have been taking genuine steps to be a calmer person. This game can bring out the very worst in me, and I am trying to ensure that does not happen.

Why do you townread ghug? What has he done that's townie enough to make up for the bad reasons he's given for scumreading you?

[Jamiet99uk]

Alright I'm back after putting kids to bed. time to catch up from where I left off.

@flum
@ghug
@all

I think we have a great opportunity here - we have a townclear. We can communicate with him. Flum's reads aren't automatically better because he's townclear, but we'd be stupid not to listen to what he says.

I don't really care how we communicate. My plan was more qualitative, ghug's is more direct. Either way, we want to give him the ability to speak with some degree of meaning to particular issues. The %%vote %%vOtE %%VOTE framework provides some degree of quality to what he's saying - he can comment "live" on how he's feeling about various people, though perhaps not particular posts. Asking direct questions means we'd have to figure out which question he's answering.

@flum vote me twice in a row for yes, 3x in a row for no, 4x in a row for "think about it more."

kinda feels like a robo-call to the underworld.

Have you noticed that Flum isn't apparently making any attempts at communicating in code, either in the fashion you've suggested, or in Ghug's way? Could it be that the GM has told him that such things are not allowed?

[Jamiet99uk]

I'll comment on this.

I think that I tend to defend myself most aggressively when I am a VT, because as a VT, I can't get votes off me late in EoD by claiming my role. This game is kind of a "role madness" setup where everyone in the town has a role of some kind which may prove useful. I was willing to claim my role if needed when I returned for EoD1, but thankfully for me personally, that proved not to be necessary. It is a shame that it turned out to be a T vs T EoD.

I can also be quite aggressive in my own defence when I feel I am being pushed by someone who is making up bullshit about me or otherwise actively lying to try to get me daykilled. It still bothers me somewhat that Ghug told a lie yesterday while trying to get a wagon moving on me (not at EoD, but earlier), yet I do think Ghug could be town.

You also genuinely have to understand that I have in the past had real problems with my short temper and my alcoholism, and since February in particular I have been taking genuine steps to be a calmer person. This game can bring out the very worst in me, and I am trying to ensure that does not happen.

Why do you townread ghug? What has he done that's townie enough to make up for the bad reasons he's given for scumreading you?

First of all, just because someone has an inaccurate or poorly-argued scumread on me, that doesn't make them scum, it makes them wrong. Townies are often wrong.

Second of all, I think that town Ghug is more likely to tunnel someone based on loose instinct, and I am not sure that scum Ghug would be acting this way.

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

[bo_sox48]

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

Are you implying that Jamie is mellow in this game? I don't know of any scum appearance in which he was decidedly mellow. I don't remember which game it was, but in the last game I recall in which he was scum and I was playing, he was pointed and aggressive in basically everything he did, startlingly so. Though he got caught for it, so maybe he has changed since.

Random question - what do you make of Maniac's move to Flum?

[bo_sox48]

I'll comment on this.

I think that I tend to defend myself most aggressively when I am a VT, because as a VT, I can't get votes off me late in EoD by claiming my role. This game is kind of a "role madness" setup where everyone in the town has a role of some kind which may prove useful. I was willing to claim my role if needed when I returned for EoD1, but thankfully for me personally, that proved not to be necessary. It is a shame that it turned out to be a T vs T EoD.

I can also be quite aggressive in my own defence when I feel I am being pushed by someone who is making up bullshit about me or otherwise actively lying to try to get me daykilled. It still bothers me somewhat that Ghug told a lie yesterday while trying to get a wagon moving on me (not at EoD, but earlier), yet I do think Ghug could be town.

You also genuinely have to understand that I have in the past had real problems with my short temper and my alcoholism, and since February in particular I have been taking genuine steps to be a calmer person. This game can bring out the very worst in me, and I am trying to ensure that does not happen.

This seems like receptive, focused Jamie as opposed to angry, apathetic Jamie. Scum or town, I prefer this persona, so I'm not going to scumread him for it.

[bo_sox48]

Why do you townread ghug? What has he done that's townie enough to make up for the bad reasons he's given for scumreading you?

First of all, just because someone has an inaccurate or poorly-argued scumread on me, that doesn't make them scum, it makes them wrong. Townies are often wrong.

Second of all, I think that town Ghug is more likely to tunnel someone based on loose instinct, and I am not sure that scum Ghug would be acting this way.

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

And yet this post seems more of the forced and/or scripted variety. So ignore me.

[teacon7]

Why?

... Because he was town, and now he's dead?

Whether you liked his thoughts or not, he was clearly thinking about the game, and formulating a reads list in his head. I can go back and check the survey results, but bozo does tend to write in a very limited-scope sort of way. "Based on x, y seems true in z situation" sort of things. That's great for scientific method and academic work, but doesn't quite get us to the applicable generalizations needed for the game. The rubber hits the road at "who would bozo vote for." It's that 10,000ft view that a reads list seems to give. It's not a huge deal because town can be wrong and he only had two phases of play, but still.... It'd be better to know.

His reads are very apparent if you read what he says. He believes that his survey thing is a beacon of light that will guide him on his way, and he clearly insinuates that those who do not ascribe to it, myself included, are more likely to be among those who he scumreads than people who answered in the way he wanted. He acknowledges to his credit that it could be faked, and he's right. He said there are three things that he thought mafia might do, and he gave a very detailed descriptor of how he felt about everyone who gave him the information he wanted, including those who he felt did any of those three things. Those are his reads.

Reads lists are a great way for scum to post a lot of words and do nothing. Make people stir the pot and do read-able things in order to meet the arbitrary post/phase quota by disavowing reads lists as a useless waste of time at best and a free opportunity to hide under an umbrella of bad play at worst.

If you want to know why bozo died, it is either because the scumteam thought he was a strong role, or because they thought he was on track somehow. It strikes me as lazy that you prefer to ruminate over how much nicer it would be if he had left you a goodie bag with some candies inside on the way out the door instead of finding his nicely put together summary of his survey, which I'll link for you here to make it even easier:

viewtopic.php?p=185529#p185529

I like reads lists because it forces people (myself included) to focus on in-game actionable models, and commit to them. It leaves a pattern of commitments that can be useful later on. Data experiments that test subjective "what would you do if XYZ" (like bozo's) are great, but they're also easy to hide behind if he never really comes to actionable conclusions. Yeah, I could go read his whole thing, but like I said before, his survey results say "from this data I got XYZ, which is, as it turns out, inconclusive." Good science, medium-to-poor grade town citizenship.

Ultimately, scum hide in "looking like they're participating, but never really commit." other candidates for that include, but aren't limited to:
a) fancy sounding math
b) haiku
c) nitpicky pressure questions built on minutiae (seriously, what does getting a rise out of someone show you, data wise, about their alignment? I don't play that way so i don't get what people get out of it).
d) antagonizing the GM with rules-lawyering
e) getting bogged down in mechanics discussions.
...all of which could have some merit for town, but without coming to conclusions, are just the appearance of town motivation without its substance.

So I'll put the question to you, since you seem to know so much about how the game is played: Why are you jumping on a one line sentence from SoD? How is this helping you get information on my alignment?

[kgray]

Why do you townread ghug? What has he done that's townie enough to make up for the bad reasons he's given for scumreading you?

First of all, just because someone has an inaccurate or poorly-argued scumread on me, that doesn't make them scum, it makes them wrong. Townies are often wrong.

Second of all, I think that town Ghug is more likely to tunnel someone based on loose instinct, and I am not sure that scum Ghug would be acting this way.

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

Yes, of course I agree that townies are wrong all the time, and poorly-reasoned reads isn't necessarily scummy.

But you've pointed out that he was pushing you based on a lie, not a poorly-argued point. That's not just tunneling. How does that not bother you more?

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

What do you mean, "over-explained"? I was just keeping you informed of my availability, as your diligent co-GM. What's wrong with that?

[teacon7]

Maybe I'm being conspiratorial, but I'm interested in why you chose to respond to the post where I criticized your view on bozo's reads as opposed to the one where I criticized your view on everyone's reads. Did you read what transpired prior to EON?

I read it, but quickly. I responded to you on my phone while, uh, in the bathroom. So I was going quickly. Now I'm in front of my pc where I can type faster+better+stronger.

Are you worried about your reaction to EON since it has been called out by a couple of talkative people?

not worried. also, we're about the same level of talkative.

[teacon7]

Teacon also didn't respond to my polite question. He came on and responded to bo, perhaps because bo asked more aggressively? hmmm... at any rate... This is sort of the second time teacon avoided my question, which while not the most profound question, (like "why was Serenity cancelled?") was important enough for me to ask again.

The Firefly series was cancelled... because the world is broken, as humanity is unjust, having fallen into original sin. Or because it ran on Syfy against Friends, which is really just evidence of the previous statement. Does that seem right to you?

I didn't answer your question because I was on the can and only had time for one reply before dinner+bedtime with kids.

[teacon7]

So I am a little mystified. I'm reading an exchange between ghug and teacon. Ghug asserts that the double vote is only revealed at EoD; seems reasonable enough.

Nevermind; the discrepancy is resolved in the final vote count. Kudos to whomever noticed that first. I certainly didn't.

It isn't reflected on the bot page, so that's a good thing to be mindful of going forward.

legit question: why did you post this if you ended up correcting yourself?

[Jamiet99uk]

So I am a little mystified. I'm reading an exchange between ghug and teacon. Ghug asserts that the double vote is only revealed at EoD; seems reasonable enough.

Nevermind; the discrepancy is resolved in the final vote count. Kudos to whomever noticed that first. I certainly didn't.

It isn't reflected on the bot page, so that's a good thing to be mindful of going forward.

legit question: why did you post this if you ended up correcting yourself?

I asked him this question and he answered it.

Are you only selectively reading?