M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[bozotheclown]

What? No he isn't, he's asking what we'd have done in the first 24 hours, before anyone was recruited.

Correct, I did not assume a recruit, I just provided all three scum instead of leaving a spot for you in my modified question.

What do you think about ghug's attempts to explain for you what you were doing?

I don't know, I do not think ghug has ever tried to pocket me when he was scum.

[bozotheclown]

I'd inform worcej that he either made a counting mistake or has a typo in the setup.

Are you trying to townslip?

No, sorry. What you would do if you were scum with HR and Maniac?

I think I'd still go for a recruit, either someone like Vecna who wouldn't get daykilled (you know, since HR and I would be his teammates...) or maybe you, so you couldn't catch me. And I'd probably feel pretty good about that team so I'd consider the white flag option to avoid going negative while being able to pick the Vengeful role. I'd also definitely would pick the neigborizior since it's free, and would be a lot of fun.

Why do you think the Vengeful role is worth the white flag?

[bozotheclown]

I refer you to my previous question.

I meant does the reason I picked them affect your answer.

It was just random, to make the question meet your conditions for being able to answer the question.

Ok. Well as others are pointing out, I'd recruit yet another scum because with a five strong scumteam in a game this size we'd be pretty overpowering. I'd also take the Public Vanilla and the Restless Spirit (to maintain voting power) and otherwise let the dice fall where they may.

I assume the 5 mafia part was deliberate to answer my flawed scenario, but do you think the mafia can choose less than 3 roles?

[worcej]

##CALLGM

Are the mafia roles assigned to them randomly from the group they bought (as per the link in the setup), or do they get to choose who gets what?

GM Note:
The Mafia assigned their purchased roles to specific people.

[ghug]

I would probably go:
Restless spirit
Odd-Night Tracker
Fruit vendor (the give the maf money? I think I read that somewhere?)
Double voter (provided the vote works more than once)

Frankly, the biggest reason is a don't like roles with limited uses, I'd be scared to use them until it's too late.

Important note, I did not do the math for this, I don't know how much debt it is, it may be bad.

Those who've played with Macca, is he crafty enough to fake this townslip?

Macca uses they/them pronouns, and if we hadn't been talking about the number of people on the scumteam then I'd say no, and they're certainly town, but since it's been in discussion I suppose there's a *slight* chance it's fake.

Sorry, bad defaulting on my part.

The townslippy part is thinking scum get to pick all four rules, to be clear.

[ghug]

@Ghug: Who does Bozo currently scumread, and why?

You, Macca, HR. Unsure on the fourth.

[ghug]

@Ghug: Who does Bozo currently scumread, and why?

ROFL. OK, town points for jamie.

For making a joke?

[TheMadMonarch]

What would you do then if you were scum with HR, Maniac, and Macca?

Why did you pick these people in particular?

random

Random?
I don't know about the others, but when you posed this, I hadn't posted for about 15 pages, how was I on your mind?

[kgray]

No, sorry. What you would do if you were scum with HR and Maniac?

I think I'd still go for a recruit, either someone like Vecna who wouldn't get daykilled (you know, since HR and I would be his teammates...) or maybe you, so you couldn't catch me. And I'd probably feel pretty good about that team so I'd consider the white flag option to avoid going negative while being able to pick the Vengeful role. I'd also definitely would pick the neigborizior since it's free, and would be a lot of fun.

Why do you think the Vengeful role is worth the white flag?

I think Vengeful is pretty powerful for mafia since it could give them an extra kill and isn't as expensive as double vote or restless spirit. Although maybe it's not so bad for mafia if town has it, because they could kill a townie too...

But my point is that if the team seems strong enough (or at least, likely enough to avoid daykills) then the white flag option could be worth taking to get better roles without going negative.

[ghug]

Ghug is Bozo's official press secretary.

What do you make of this fact?

Actually, kgray answer that question first. Then Jamie can.

Jamie's sarcasm aside, I do think you're being overly defensive of bozo and I don't like it. Reminds me of how you claimed there's no way I could have scumslipped last game.

This is consistent with a belief that scumslips are fake news. You've only seen me as scum, so it seems consistent with my scum meta.

[ghug]

##CALLGM

Are the mafia roles assigned to them randomly from the group they bought (as per the link in the setup), or do they get to choose who gets what?

GM Note:
The Mafia assigned their purchased roles to specific people.

Guess I don't townread teacon then.

#CALLGM can you clarify which parts of the MafiaScum setup you linked are included in this game and which parts are not?

[worcej]

##CALLGM

Are the mafia roles assigned to them randomly from the group they bought (as per the link in the setup), or do they get to choose who gets what?

GM Note:
The Mafia assigned their purchased roles to specific people.

Guess I don't townread teacon then.

#CALLGM can you clarify which parts of the MafiaScum setup you linked are included in this game and which parts are not?

GM Note:
This setup is based on the mafiascum link. A lot of things are similar, but not all of them.

I would say consult page 1 and ask me any specific questions you would like. I am not going to do a detailed analysis on any and all changes.

[teacon7]

I have returned, and will be replying to messages, starting with where I left off on page 27.

First, a couple replies to Bunny.

Did you jacka##es just manage to sh*tpost for 24 hours and not even clarify all the rules/roles in that time?

short answer: yes.

Do you not agree with the concept that Town's job is to obv!Town so that we can group up together and find each other?

I recognize that this is how some people play. That is not how I play. I'm not looking for social consensus before making inquiries or decisions. My ability to townread isn't good enough that I wouldn't get fooled. I'm a more independent-minded person anyway. My objective as town isn't really "find town" like you're suggesting, but rather "find scum."

There are lots of ways of doing that. Some involve weird play like drawing nk's away from PR. Some involve posting weirdly to get reactions. Regardless of what you think of the effectiveness of those strategies, they are town-motivated, and don't always look like it. Sometimes, town players are just bad at what they do, but still town. #2020.

Besides, if I was able to artificially manufacture "obv!town so that we can group up together" like you're suggesting, I would be way better at this game when randing scum.

[kgray]

Those who've played with Macca, is he crafty enough to fake this townslip?

Macca uses they/them pronouns, and if we hadn't been talking about the number of people on the scumteam then I'd say no, and they're certainly town, but since it's been in discussion I suppose there's a *slight* chance it's fake.

Sorry, bad defaulting on my part.

The townslippy part is thinking scum get to pick all four rules, to be clear.

Oh... If that was the slip then yeah, I think they're almost certainly town. But I still think Macca was implying that they think there are 4 original scum, because they didn't say they'd recruit, so I'll stick with my initial answer: possibly forced slip but most likely town.

[bozotheclown]

I think I'd still go for a recruit, either someone like Vecna who wouldn't get daykilled (you know, since HR and I would be his teammates...) or maybe you, so you couldn't catch me. And I'd probably feel pretty good about that team so I'd consider the white flag option to avoid going negative while being able to pick the Vengeful role. I'd also definitely would pick the neigborizior since it's free, and would be a lot of fun.

Why do you think the Vengeful role is worth the white flag?

I think Vengeful is pretty powerful for mafia since it could give them an extra kill and isn't as expensive as double vote or restless spirit. Although maybe it's not so bad for mafia if town has it, because they could kill a townie too...

But my point is that if the team seems strong enough (or at least, likely enough to avoid daykills) then the white flag option could be worth taking to get better roles without going negative.

You would only get the extra kill if the Vengeful is the DK though, and the white flag hurts you if any of the mafia is the DK.

[kgray]

What do you make of this fact?

Actually, kgray answer that question first. Then Jamie can.

Jamie's sarcasm aside, I do think you're being overly defensive of bozo and I don't like it. Reminds me of how you claimed there's no way I could have scumslipped last game.

This is consistent with a belief that scumslips are fake news. You've only seen me as scum, so it seems consistent with my scum meta.

What do you mean with your first sentence? Do you never believe in scumslips? Last game, as scum, you said there's no way you'd buy what I said as a scumslip even though I actually thought it was going to get me miskilled (or force me to claim) so in hindsight it seems obvious that you had too much info.

The second part might be true.

[teacon7]

Ok I townread teacon.

With the prior that rd is the vanilla, I think option B is more likely, even when removing your faulty ascribed motivation. This might shift him slightly towards scum, but not enough to policy vote him.

Having just posted that asking damo to compute odds is useless, I still take umbrage with the misuse of "prior".

Knowing rdr is vanilla shouldn't change your balance between those two options. The balance of the two shouldn't change when you find out he is vanilla. The point of teacon's question is to remove the knowledge of what happened from your analysis.

I'm rejecting teacon's framing because the scum option is framed to account for the reduced set of options given that we now know his role, whereas the town option is not.

I'm saying that we should be considering the state of the world now in examining both possibilities, making rd's now known role a component of the prior distribution and treating the unknown as his alignment, because that's where we are.

Don't try to math me. I used to be smart.

I appreciate your insight here.
I don't see this as a policy vote.
Let me rephrase the question:


Which is more likely:

• scum!rdriv considers himself a "likely nk" target, and if alive d3 will get fear-daykilled by town, so he picks a 0 cost role to provide mild cover and give his scum-team-mates more points, or
• scum rejects the 0 point role, and town!rdriv rands confirmed vanilla as 1 out of 14 (or 1 out of 15)

?

Does that satisfy the criteria concerns you had? I see the first option as more likely, but I don't get why it's a policy vote.

[teacon7]

again, I'm catching up and posting my replies as I go. Here's another.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I'm uncomfortable answering this question, as I don't want to give scum any ideas. I did send the godthread a message about this early on... you'll see I was mistaken about some mechanics. However, I will say that I would not have recruited anyone, and I would have picked roles so as to deny town investigative powers.

To clarify, you've been asking people questions. Firstly, about what they'd do with the $90. Second, what they'd do if they were on a scumteam with XYZ. What train of thought led you to ask one question and then the other?

[teacon7]

You will not take the extra member? Bold move.

I was giving a second thought and I would have considered the Public Vanilla instead of the Fruit Vendor if scum have someone that isn't a likely NK.

@rdrivera, could you please elaborate on what you mean by this?
What is a "likely nk" ?
what do you mean by "Public Vanilla instead of the Fruit Vendor" ?

[kgray]

Why do you think the Vengeful role is worth the white flag?

I think Vengeful is pretty powerful for mafia since it could give them an extra kill and isn't as expensive as double vote or restless spirit. Although maybe it's not so bad for mafia if town has it, because they could kill a townie too...

But my point is that if the team seems strong enough (or at least, likely enough to avoid daykills) then the white flag option could be worth taking to get better roles without going negative.

You would only get the extra kill if the Vengeful is the DK though, and the white flag hurts you if any of the mafia is the DK.

Yeah, true. But the white flag doesn't matter until there's one scum left, and since Vengeful is the only killing role, it's better for scum if they control it so the *only* way they can be killed is with the DK, like you say.

Is this helping you determine my alignment?