M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[Donny Dude]

Who do you think are a possible scumteam, Donny?

Honestly in order
Flash, bozo, nanook I am not sure on the fourth.
Poss maniac, but I am less sure sure on that.

So you think bozo and nanook are bussing me?

Possibly, yes.
Nanook did say as scum he tends to bus his own scummates.
Bozo seems to have a case on you based on meta.

[flash2015]

Actually, I don't understand why bozo is not voting for me. Bozo allegedly convinced Nanook that I am scum...but bozo is voting for seth. Weird.

[ghug]

Actually, I don't understand why bozo is not voting for me. Bozo allegedly convinced Nanook that I am scum...but bozo is voting for seth. Weird.

You find it weird that someone has multiple scumreads?

[flash2015]

Actually, I don't understand why bozo is not voting for me. Bozo allegedly convinced Nanook that I am scum...but bozo is voting for seth. Weird.

You find it weird that someone has multiple scumreads?

No

[kgray]

Hey flash since you're obviously still around, can we get some reasons for your scumreads of Flum, Donny and Moscow?

[ghug]

Ok, so, of the people who suddenly developed scumreads on me:

Flum - I'm leaving scum at this point, provided flash is also scum. He's given the most fleshed-out reason for his read on me, but it's built mostly around a cherrypicked meta picture and a dependent read on flash. His whole EoD/beginning of night yesterday seems more designed to paint a picture than straightforward analysis, talking up all the dead people that wanted flash gone, being ready to scumread all the Vecna voters he sees as good players for being wrong too much despite his own instrumentality in damo's death, and doing all this "promise me your vote tomorrow" shit. I've never seen Flum behave like a politician.

His play reads like someone with absolute knowledge that the player he's bussing is scum who's a little bit too ready to set up the connections there, despite his initial advocacy for a flash kill being more of the "he's useless and we need to flip him" variety.

If Flash is town, all this goes out the window and I just don't like Flum's play at all. If he's scum, I think HR is probably town, given his choice to reread him and not me or kgray and then push us. worcej and bozo are potential teammates: people he's regularly accused but never actually pushed. kgray could make sense along those lines as well, but I townread her more heavily.

Durga - I think is probably town and just being dumb about sheeping Flum. The anger seems legit, and I think she's more likely to post at night as town than scum cause the optics are bad and she's a coward. This read is much stronger if flash is scum, as the only thing scarier than bussing your teammate is being a late jumper off of them onto a miskill.

Seth - This feels legit and kind of emotional in a way that strikes me as townie. He seems fed up with my schtick and kinda lost and looking for a grand conspiracy to make everything make sense. He also flipped on me before Flum did rather than sheeping me.

Maniac - I'd probably townread the super blatant vote out of anyone else, but it does show abandonment of his reads, and Maniac is smart enough to play the too scummy card.

[ghug]

Actually, I don't understand why bozo is not voting for me. Bozo allegedly convinced Nanook that I am scum...but bozo is voting for seth. Weird.

You find it weird that someone has multiple scumreads?

No

Why do you make questioning you like pulling teeth and also not openly share your thoughts?

[bozotheclown]

Kgray you are coming out the gate against Maniac.
Any other thoughts on the Vecna wagon you're curious about?

Sure, here are my thoughts, although it's hard for me to analyze the Vecna wagon because I really disagree with you that Vecna wasn't being scummy. He did a whole lot more explaining here than in previous town!Vecna games I've seen and was overall much less decisive and much more defensive than I've ever seen him. I honestly don't see how you and Durga were so adamant that he was town, especially after that attack on HR for his online status. But I don't think that's scummy, because it seems to me like you were both actually fighting to save him (you especially asking ghug to move to flash), not just making it look like you were.

Anyway, my thoughts on the Vecna wagon:

With the caveat that I'm slightly concerned that ghug's been pocketing the shit out of me, I still think he's town. He's just seeing most things the same way I am, and I think it would be hard to fake that level of mind-melding.

I think HR's D4 was pretty towny, it reminds me exactly of how he played in M1015 where he tunneled on town!Hamilton. He'd been consistently pushing Vecna for reasons that I thought were valid, and I don't see why scum!HR would draw so much attention to himself by pushing his miskill the way he did after those earlier arguments with Vecna. I also see no reason for scum to defend flash so much regardless of flash's alignment - which I know is an argument that HR himself made, but I still buy it.

The timing of Moscow's Vecna vote was somewhat suspicious, but I don't object to his reasons - they were basically the same ones I had.

Before I reread anything I thought Nanook's vote was the most suspicious, but I looked through his iso and he did seem to consistently townread flash, and his claim that he preferred the Vecna wagon mostly checks out with his reads too.

While I understood bozo's case against Vecna, it's pretty convenient that he decided to make it once Vecna was already starting to be a wagon, and it did take him forever to vote for Vecna. There's definitely a part of me that thinks he was encouraging the Vecna wagon but didn't want to join until it got a lot of support.

I thought worcej's initial vote for Vecna sheeping bozo seemed sort of opportunistic, but his move to flash at 10 minutes to EOD doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum if he were trying to get Vecna miskilled. With Flum and Durga vocally calling people off of Vecna, that move could have very well saved Vecna. So town points to worcej for that.

Maniac I've already addressed.

I don't have a super strong read on flash but I do think he's been fairly scummy. Voting for your counter wagon is NAI, though him justifying it by saying he wanted to vote Vecna over seth when he was on worcej previously is pretty suspect when he could have just said it was to save himself.

Durga's and worcej's last-second votes for Vecna were probably attempts to avoid a tie (I guess they could comment on that though). I think it's unlikely that scum!Durga argues against Vecna's daykill that much but then hops on the wagon at the end to make sure it goes through? But there's always the chance that she would assume people will think that. And of course "avoiding a tie" is a great excuse for scum to place decisive votes right at EOD, so overall I'd lean towards those two last-second votes being NAI.

Based just on D4 voting, I give town points to HR and worcej, and scum points to Maniac and bozo.

I also think it's unlikely that all scum were on Vecna, so I'd be surprised if at least one of Donny/Flum/seth weren't scum.

I believe I had pointed out the things I found suspicious about Vecna before he was a wagon. The reason I put it all together as a "case" when I did was because Vecna accused me of ignoring everything that happened since D1, trying to make it sound scum indicative to vote for seth.

[ghug]

HR is reminding me of that one game where his whole team voted to save him and then he ruthlessly attacked Moscow for days, but he seems to be reminding other people of times he's done that as town, do idfk. Leaving town on associations with alive people, which is a shitty way to do reads.

Moscow is starting to really wear out the cred he got for summit's death, to the point that I don't know if I townread him anymore.

Donny and Nanook both have townie energy.

I'm pretty null on everyone else.

[bozotheclown]

##vote Maniac

for reasons

Do you think summit claimed D1 to a reveal a PR knowing a scum was going to be the DK, or do you think Maniac is the traitor?

I think that even before Chaqa cc'd summit it was likely that nobody would believe his claim and summit would still be the kill. I don't think summit thought it would save himself (especially if he was counting on the cc), and I think he just wanted to expose a PR on his way out, so I see a world where he didn't think scum!Maniac was in danger of dying and still claimed.

But I suppose Maniac being the traitor does make more sense than non-traitor scum because it still would have been risky for summit to try that fake claim if he knew his counter wagon was his teammate, and I don't think summit wanted to endanger his team....

So I don't know.

It is not typical for a PR to CC immediately like that, I think summit probably thought there was a chance he could avoid the D1 DK by claiming, and force a PR to CC to get him DKed D2. If he knew Maniac was scum, this would result in 2 scum DKs.

[flash2015]

You find it weird that someone has multiple scumreads?

No

Why do you make questioning you like pulling teeth and also not openly share your thoughts?

You phrased the question like I am an idiot...so why would I bother responding to that seriously?

[ghug]

No

Why do you make questioning you like pulling teeth and also not openly share your thoughts?

You phrased the question like I am an idiot...so why would I bother responding to that seriously?

The question's intent was more rhetoric than insult, but I think Socrates was a jackass, so I'll grant you that.

I'll rephrase, and repeat an old question:
Why is bozo voting for someone else suspicious?
Why do you scumread who you do?

[bozotheclown]

And his alignment those games was...?

He was mafia in M56 where he did not change his vote D1. In M53 and M55 he was town, and in those games he changed his vote during D1.

There is kind of a difference here though, isn't there? I don't remember the games and I can't be bothered going back and finding them but I suspect I changed my vote because my initial vote did not become a viable wagon. summit's wagon was viable and he was acting weird...and I always hoped to catch him as scum so I stayed on him.

Yes, I believe your vote did not become a viable wagon in these games, and the 2 games you were town, you moved your vote during D1, but in M56, when you were scum and bussing, you did not move your vote D1.

[bozotheclown]

Actually, I don't understand why bozo is not voting for me. Bozo allegedly convinced Nanook that I am scum...but bozo is voting for seth. Weird.

That is what I was expecting Fluminator to say.

Nanook said he did not think it was likely scum would do what you did D1 as scum, and I pointed out that you have done it before as scum.

If you have been reading the game, I think you would know why I am voting for seth even though I also think there is a reasonable chance you are scum.

[flash2015]

He was mafia in M56 where he did not change his vote D1. In M53 and M55 he was town, and in those games he changed his vote during D1.

There is kind of a difference here though, isn't there? I don't remember the games and I can't be bothered going back and finding them but I suspect I changed my vote because my initial vote did not become a viable wagon. summit's wagon was viable and he was acting weird...and I always hoped to catch him as scum so I stayed on him.

Yes, I believe your vote did not become a viable wagon in these games, and the 2 games you were town, you moved your vote during D1, but in M56, when you were scum and bussing, you did not move your vote D1.

So in summary - the two games I was town, I moved to a viable wagon...and the game I was scum I stayed on a non-viable wagon. In this game was I on a viable or non-viable wagon at EOD D1?

[flash2015]

Actually, I don't understand why bozo is not voting for me. Bozo allegedly convinced Nanook that I am scum...but bozo is voting for seth. Weird.

That is what I was expecting Fluminator to say.

Nanook said he did not think it was likely scum would do what you did D1 as scum, and I pointed out that you have done it before as scum.

If you have been reading the game, I think you would know why I am voting for seth even though I also think there is a reasonable chance you are scum.

I guess I was just looking at your most recent posts.

So in summary you think the scum team is Seth and me so far. Who do you think may be the other two?

[bozotheclown]

There is kind of a difference here though, isn't there? I don't remember the games and I can't be bothered going back and finding them but I suspect I changed my vote because my initial vote did not become a viable wagon. summit's wagon was viable and he was acting weird...and I always hoped to catch him as scum so I stayed on him.

Yes, I believe your vote did not become a viable wagon in these games, and the 2 games you were town, you moved your vote during D1, but in M56, when you were scum and bussing, you did not move your vote D1.

So in summary - the two games I was town, I moved to a viable wagon...and the game I was scum I stayed on a non-viable wagon. In this game was I on a viable or non-viable wagon at EOD D1?

I was not saying the viable wagon part was similar to this game, but that was not part of Nanook reason for assuming you were town:

I think you generally try to push him somewhat so you get credit for being on him

I wouldn’t consider flash useless from what I can remember I feel like he’d be able to at least make some attempt at getting cred, seems unlikely he’s one of the worst scum players I’ve ever seen

He's come in to play the "y u dare accuse me" card and the "im happy to die" card. Those are attempts to earn cred in my eyes.

I meant on D1, as in he’d do more than just leave it as a joke/try to put something that looks like actual reasons behind it


Maybe flash is the exception but ime most scum players aren’t actually comfortable just having joke votes out an entire day, even one on their partner, and feel the need to either move off it or pivot it to being a serious vote at some point. Maybe flash is the exception, idk, but that’s broadly been my experience

[ghug]

flash, I was polite and you still ignored me.

[kgray]

Flum - I'm leaving scum at this point, provided flash is also scum. He's given the most fleshed-out reason for his read on me, but it's built mostly around a cherrypicked meta picture and a dependent read on flash. His whole EoD/beginning of night yesterday seems more designed to paint a picture than straightforward analysis, talking up all the dead people that wanted flash gone, being ready to scumread all the Vecna voters he sees as good players for being wrong too much despite his own instrumentality in damo's death, and doing all this "promise me your vote tomorrow" shit. I've never seen Flum behave like a politician.

His play reads like someone with absolute knowledge that the player he's bussing is scum who's a little bit too ready to set up the connections there, despite his initial advocacy for a flash kill being more of the "he's useless and we need to flip him" variety.

fwiw Flum did some "promise me your vote tomorrow" stuff with Balki in M54 as town, so that part doesn't really concern me.

[Nanook]

This is helpful, I’ll take a look

I’m now convinced

##vote flash

Why? Did you actually look at these games?

I looked at your D1/2 ISO in them