M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[kgray]

In my opinion flash is not the best flip today. He may or may not be scum but I think we have several partners/groups that are very likely to be scum together and I would prefer to flip one of those options. Maniac in particular is extremely scummy and would give us loads of information. He never deserved to be let off the hook for being the alternate wagon to summit imo. Ghug and moscow are two other ones who I currently have above flash on my preference list.

Um what? Where did your ghug scumread come from?

[Nanook]

He's come in to play the "y u dare accuse me" card and the "im happy to die" card. Those are attempts to earn cred in my eyes.

I meant on D1, as in he’d do more than just leave it as a joke/try to put something that looks like actual reasons behind it


Maybe flash is the exception but ime most scum players aren’t actually comfortable just having joke votes out an entire day, even one on their partner, and feel the need to either move off it or pivot it to being a serious vote at some point. Maybe flash is the exception, idk, but that’s broadly been my experience

This post reminded me that flash did this before, I check and it was M56.
flash's pattern of voting for the same player at the beginning of D1 goes back further than when he started voting for summit D1. I suggest reading flash's D1 of M53, M55, and M56 for reference.

And his alignment those games was...?

[ghug]

In my opinion flash is not the best flip today. He may or may not be scum but I think we have several partners/groups that are very likely to be scum together and I would prefer to flip one of those options. Maniac in particular is extremely scummy and would give us loads of information. He never deserved to be let off the hook for being the alternate wagon to summit imo. Ghug and moscow are two other ones who I currently have above flash on my preference list.

Um what? Where did your ghug scumread come from?

The sudden glut of unexplained scumreads on me is really odd.

[bozotheclown]

I meant on D1, as in he’d do more than just leave it as a joke/try to put something that looks like actual reasons behind it


Maybe flash is the exception but ime most scum players aren’t actually comfortable just having joke votes out an entire day, even one on their partner, and feel the need to either move off it or pivot it to being a serious vote at some point. Maybe flash is the exception, idk, but that’s broadly been my experience

This post reminded me that flash did this before, I check and it was M56.
flash's pattern of voting for the same player at the beginning of D1 goes back further than when he started voting for summit D1. I suggest reading flash's D1 of M53, M55, and M56 for reference.

And his alignment those games was...?

He was mafia in M56 where he did not change his vote D1. In M53 and M55 he was town, and in those games he changed his vote during D1.

[kgray]

Kgray you are coming out the gate against Maniac.
Any other thoughts on the Vecna wagon you're curious about?

Sure, here are my thoughts, although it's hard for me to analyze the Vecna wagon because I really disagree with you that Vecna wasn't being scummy. He did a whole lot more explaining here than in previous town!Vecna games I've seen and was overall much less decisive and much more defensive than I've ever seen him. I honestly don't see how you and Durga were so adamant that he was town, especially after that attack on HR for his online status. But I don't think that's scummy, because it seems to me like you were both actually fighting to save him (you especially asking ghug to move to flash), not just making it look like you were.

Anyway, my thoughts on the Vecna wagon:

With the caveat that I'm slightly concerned that ghug's been pocketing the shit out of me, I still think he's town. He's just seeing most things the same way I am, and I think it would be hard to fake that level of mind-melding.

I think HR's D4 was pretty towny, it reminds me exactly of how he played in M1015 where he tunneled on town!Hamilton. He'd been consistently pushing Vecna for reasons that I thought were valid, and I don't see why scum!HR would draw so much attention to himself by pushing his miskill the way he did after those earlier arguments with Vecna. I also see no reason for scum to defend flash so much regardless of flash's alignment - which I know is an argument that HR himself made, but I still buy it.

The timing of Moscow's Vecna vote was somewhat suspicious, but I don't object to his reasons - they were basically the same ones I had.

Before I reread anything I thought Nanook's vote was the most suspicious, but I looked through his iso and he did seem to consistently townread flash, and his claim that he preferred the Vecna wagon mostly checks out with his reads too.

While I understood bozo's case against Vecna, it's pretty convenient that he decided to make it once Vecna was already starting to be a wagon, and it did take him forever to vote for Vecna. There's definitely a part of me that thinks he was encouraging the Vecna wagon but didn't want to join until it got a lot of support.

I thought worcej's initial vote for Vecna sheeping bozo seemed sort of opportunistic, but his move to flash at 10 minutes to EOD doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum if he were trying to get Vecna miskilled. With Flum and Durga vocally calling people off of Vecna, that move could have very well saved Vecna. So town points to worcej for that.

Maniac I've already addressed.

I don't have a super strong read on flash but I do think he's been fairly scummy. Voting for your counter wagon is NAI, though him justifying it by saying he wanted to vote Vecna over seth when he was on worcej previously is pretty suspect when he could have just said it was to save himself.

Durga's and worcej's last-second votes for Vecna were probably attempts to avoid a tie (I guess they could comment on that though). I think it's unlikely that scum!Durga argues against Vecna's daykill that much but then hops on the wagon at the end to make sure it goes through? But there's always the chance that she would assume people will think that. And of course "avoiding a tie" is a great excuse for scum to place decisive votes right at EOD, so overall I'd lean towards those two last-second votes being NAI.

Based just on D4 voting, I give town points to HR and worcej, and scum points to Maniac and bozo.

I also think it's unlikely that all scum were on Vecna, so I'd be surprised if at least one of Donny/Flum/seth weren't scum.

[Fluminator]

In my opinion flash is not the best flip today. He may or may not be scum but I think we have several partners/groups that are very likely to be scum together and I would prefer to flip one of those options. Maniac in particular is extremely scummy and would give us loads of information. He never deserved to be let off the hook for being the alternate wagon to summit imo. Ghug and moscow are two other ones who I currently have above flash on my preference list.

Um what? Where did your ghug scumread come from?

The sudden glut of unexplained scumreads on me is really odd.

I thought it was normal for you

[kgray]

I think you generally try to push him somewhat so you get credit for being on him

I wouldn’t consider flash useless from what I can remember I feel like he’d be able to at least make some attempt at getting cred, seems unlikely he’s one of the worst scum players I’ve ever seen

He's come in to play the "y u dare accuse me" card and the "im happy to die" card. Those are attempts to earn cred in my eyes.

I meant on D1, as in he’d do more than just leave it as a joke/try to put something that looks like actual reasons behind it


Maybe flash is the exception but ime most scum players aren’t actually comfortable just having joke votes out an entire day, even one on their partner, and feel the need to either move off it or pivot it to being a serious vote at some point. Maybe flash is the exception, idk, but that’s broadly been my experience

Do you not think flash's questioning why summit hadn't voted counts as him trying to put an actual reason behind it?

[ghug]

Um what? Where did your ghug scumread come from?

The sudden glut of unexplained scumreads on me is really odd.

I thought it was normal for you

It's usually the beginning of the game and steadily waning over time. Kinda undermines your "ghug too townread" argument, don't you think?

I decided what it all means in the shower but I don't have time to tell you yet.

[Fluminator]

I don’t think I said people are treating me like trash? It’s just a culture thing I think, it’s not enjoyable for me but if it works for you guys then it works for you guys. I’m not interested in trying to change your norms—I don’t expect people to change just cause I don’t particularly enjoy parts of the environment here lol

Where do you play normally that this place is considered bad in comparison?

When I called ghug a hoe it wasn't intended as an insult and I'm sorry if that offended you. The world needs hoes and no shame.

[kgray]

##vote Maniac

for reasons

Do you think summit claimed D1 to a reveal a PR knowing a scum was going to be the DK, or do you think Maniac is the traitor?

I think that even before Chaqa cc'd summit it was likely that nobody would believe his claim and summit would still be the kill. I don't think summit thought it would save himself (especially if he was counting on the cc), and I think he just wanted to expose a PR on his way out, so I see a world where he didn't think scum!Maniac was in danger of dying and still claimed.

But I suppose Maniac being the traitor does make more sense than non-traitor scum because it still would have been risky for summit to try that fake claim if he knew his counter wagon was his teammate, and I don't think summit wanted to endanger his team....

So I don't know.

[Durga]

Oh god he's actually sheeping me. Is this buddying? Maybe. Is it effective? Also maybe.

[Fluminator]

Yeah, Maniac could easily be the traitor but I'll be quite suprised if he's one of the other scum based on Summit's claim.

[Durga]

I'm actually fine to get flash today, but ghug actively irritating me and nitpicking weird things and doing fake contributory shit like claiming gun is likely scum!ghug

[Durga]

@kgray I obviously only moved to Vecna because I saw Seth's vote and panicked that there might be a tie, I didn't count numbers to see it wasn't possible unless someone unvoted.

[Fluminator]

Kgray, why are you assuming defending Vecna was a townie thing to do? If flash is town then it's pretty meaningless no?

[seth24c]

Mainly because 2 of my top suspects for not bussing summit, Donny and seth, are still around. damo is gone, but ghug, Fluminator, and MF are still good candidates for summit bussers.

You like the people I point out to you as good candidates for summit bussers but still think I am scum. It's laughable that donny and I are still your top suspects for not bussing summit. Literally everyone else who was not on the wagon is dead besides nanook and maniac, who just happed to be the two scummiest players in the game.

There are 5 players left who were not voting for summit at the time he claimed (you left out worcej). After rereading D1, I felt Donny and you were the most suspicious for the way you pursued multiple summit counter wagons with little mention of summit. I think it is very unlikely all 4 remaining mafia were voting for summit before his claim, so I believe the probability of me being correct about you and/or Donny has increased, not decreased, as the non-busser pool has been reduced.

summit and Maniac were tied at 8-8 15 minutes before D1 EOD. Tom, Chaqa, and Vecna then voted for summit consecutively to make the vote 11-7. Even if there were 2 mafia already voting for summit when the vote was 8-8, there would still be 2 mafia in the other 5 left.

Look at something besides vca. There are several whole days of information and links of who could be partners. One of the remaining mafia is probably the traitor so I admit that that player was probably not on the wagon. Other than that we should be trying to find scummy players. It is true that because there are less townspeople now that the likely hold of people off the wagon being scum are higher, it is also true that the likely hold of people on the summit wagon being scum is higher. There is now a greater proportion of scum players compared to town. Go figure.

[ghug]

I'm actually fine to get flash today, but ghug actively irritating me and nitpicking weird things and doing fake contributory shit like claiming gun is likely scum!ghug

Didn't scumghug try to be nice to you last game?
Don't I do more shit they pisses people off as town?
Didn't you scumread me before I dared to ask you a question this morning?

Why are you posting at night?
Why did you scumread me overnight?

[Fluminator]

Kgray, why are you assuming defending Vecna was a townie thing to do? If flash is town then it's pretty meaningless no?

Mainly regarding your take on worcej.

[kgray]

Kgray, why are you assuming defending Vecna was a townie thing to do? If flash is town then it's pretty meaningless no?

Yeah, that's true. If flash is town it doesn't mean much. But even if Vecna's reads were 100% backwards I agree that scum would rather take the opportunity to daykill him than flash.

[seth24c]

So why did it take you until almost the final second to make any attempt to save Vecna, if he sounded town? Did he only sound town right at the end? Why delay your vote until his death was inevitable?

Couldn't tell if he was trying to pocket me or make himself look good on my flip. Clearly as it turned out he was just defending his town reads. Near the end he was clearly town (First time I could tell for sure) and I saw that and that the vote couldn't be tied so I voted hoping others would also switch there vote. Knew it was a longshot but it was worth trying. Plus maniac had some garbage post about vote for vecna for towncred so that was also a factor that made me think mistakes were being made.

What exactly made you think Vecna became clearly town at the end?

How he was acting.