The United States is a fascist police state, no longer a democracy

[Jamiet99uk]

I'll just leave this here

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/89227759 ... n-portland

[orathaic]

Thx

[Octavious]

Yawn

When was the last year you didn't accuse the US of being fascist? Your posts carry as much weight as the Daily Express' annual warning of exceptional snowfall over winter.

[Jamiet99uk]

It's true though.

[Octavious]

Is it though? Government officials apparently overstepping the mark and facing criticism and legal challenges seems very much a sign of a typical democracy rather than fascism. Are there any nations that aren't fascist by your definition? Did France sinking the Greenpeace ship make them a fascist? Poland, Hungary, Russia, China, Ukraine, Turkey, Israel, India... Any of these not fascist in your eyes?

[orathaic]

Is it though? Government officials apparently overstepping the mark and facing criticism and legal challenges seems very much a sign of a typical democracy rather than fascism. Are there any nations that aren't fascist by your definition? Did France sinking the Greenpeace ship make them a fascist? Poland, Hungary, Russia, China, Ukraine, Turkey, Israel, India... Any of these not fascist in your eyes?

I mean seriously? Citing other examples of fascistic tenancies does not change what is happening in the US.

It seems above you are arguing that because leftists like me have complained in the past, therefore our complaints should be ignored today. As if today's abuse of power is the same as previous. Do you actually support or oppose federal law enforcement arresting without charge, threatening people, using tactics designed to inspire fear and discourage protest*... Etc.

Lastly, Germany and Italian fascism both began as democratic societies which slowly slide into undemocratic systems. Hungary today voted to give Victor Orban (legitimately elected prime minister) powers to rule by dictate If you think these things aren't at all problematic, just say you support the fascists!

*Protest here = freedom of speech.

[Randomizer]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-not-re ... 09095.html

Then you have Trump will only accept election results as legitimate if he is the victor. That isn't a sign of a democracy where only one candidate decides that the election is fair.

[Octavious]

I mean seriously? Citing other examples of fascistic tenancies does not change what is happening in the US.

Yet again you (deliberately?) misunderstand my intentions. I'm in no sense trying to argue that the US isn't fascist because of the actions of other nations. It isn't fascist for obvious reasons and to argue why is as pointless as arguing that the sun is hot. My question was asked to try and establish what Jamie's definition of fascist actually is, which is a complete mystery to me.

[orathaic]

So your position is that your position is so obvious it doesn't even need to be stated?

Whereas reality suggests fascism has a tendency to sneak up on democratic countries and bash the shit out of their institutions, especially when there has been a great depression... Like the 2008 financial crash - where the fash rouse nationalism in order to redirect anger at the poor economic situation towards minorities.

And all of that happening in the US right now doesn't seem at all problematic to you?

[Octavious]

Could you define "all that is happening"? If you mean police shootings it is a concern but no greater concern than it has been for a rather long time. If you mean Covid-19 it has nothing to do with fascism. If you mean the border wall, I have long been a believer in the right of every nation to choose whatever immigration policy it believes appropriate. If you mean the protests, considering the potential harm with the Covid pandemic and the violence of some protesters, the government has largely acted with remarkable constraint. If you mean military conflict, the US is involved in far less currently than in recent history.

[Octavious]

In terms of dividing people along racial lines, I am seeing a lot of that, and it's overwhelmingly originating from the left.

[flash2015]

In terms of dividing people along racial lines, I am seeing a lot of that, and it's overwhelmingly originating from the left.

Seriously?

Who are "the left" that you are talking about anyway? Biden? Pelosi? Schumer? Cuomo? Harris? Obama? Or are you talking about $RANDOM "left" person or talking head on youtube vs. the racial division coming from the POTUS himself?

[Octavious]

I'm talking about the plague of identity politics that are being pushed constantly by left wing figures and media sources, and my experience is primarily based in the UK. As I have said several times I know very little about Biden, and I have no idea who Schumer, Cuomo, and Harris are.

[flash2015]

I'm talking about the plague of identity politics that are being pushed constantly by left wing figures and media sources, and my experience is primarily based in the UK. As I have said several times I know very little about Biden, and I have no idea who Schumer, Cuomo, and Harris are.

Aren't we talking about the US though?

[Octavious]

True. I have largely extrapolated to the US based on the UK experience with this issue. But based on what I've read in the New York Times and CNN, and how far left movements who specialise in identity politics like BLM have originated and spread from the US, I believe this to be fair.

[flash2015]

True. I have largely extrapolated to the US based on the UK experience with this issue. But based on what I've read in the New York Times and CNN, and how far left movements who specialise in identity politics like BLM have originated and spread from the US, I believe this to be fair.

I know it is a convenient shortcut in right-wing circles to find $RANDOM activist/talking head that says something silly then say it applies to everyone on the left. Doesn't make it a valid argument though. Especially doesn't make all the divisive politics of Trump right either.

[Octavious]

Ok, you've written $RANDOM twice now so it clearly isn't a typo. What on earth does that actually mean?

[flash2015]

Variable in bash (from Unix/Linux command line/shell).

[orathaic]

@Octavious, and "all that is happening"

Children separated from their parents and placed in cages - state says this is OK. Similar to Japanese Internment (in that both targeted groups are deemed 'troublesome').

The border wall is just an example of misappropriation of funds to pay for a project, undermining Congress. The how is more important than the why (which I disagree with in principle, you obviously disagree).

The constant lies and failure to take responcibility.

The active decision to ignore best practice and medical advice when it comes to Covid.

The use of military force against peaceful protesters and journalists (particularly egregious when done for a photo op during an election year - that is violation of basic rights - assembly and freedom of speech - in order to further a political campaign).

You are right that Trump done very little to push military conflict abroad, this is the one thing which Biden is likely to be worse then Trump on. But as you know I've repeatedly criticised Obama for things like killing US citizens abroad with drones (because they happened to be declared enemies of the state).

So in total, lying, and ignoring the deaths of their own citizens, blaming others and using all executive power possible to further a political campaign, along with lies about likely hood of fraud (relating to vote by mail) which seems like a precursor to lying about not losing an election. Prepping Trump's base... Yeah, just that side is problematic.

The white supremacists, who we saw occupy state buildings while armed, with the tacit approval of the local police forces - in contrast with how militarised police force has been used against Black Lives Matter protesters.

Those protests based on lies from Trump about covid, about forcing local D elected officials to do what Trump wants, basically lies used to express Trmup's power to undermine States and the democracy therein.

Each step by itself isn't that big a deal, it is the pattern which is problematic. It is the courting of white supremacists, the tactics lifted from Germany in the early 30s.

How is identity politics dividing people? Recognising the intersection of oppression (how black trans women are far less privileged than most other group) allows us to empathise which is vital for feeling other people are part of Us, rather than blaming them for being different.

I honestly don't know what 'identity politics' means to you.

[orathaic]

I forgot, Roger Stone's sentence being commuted. So it is OK to lie to Congress and to obstruct justice, so long as you know you can rely on Trump to pardon you at the end of the day. Great example of upholding democracy and justice in the US.