M55: The Last Party - Game Thread

[kgray]

Are you f-ing serious? We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

emc I'm missing something here. What's wrong with the logic that you could flip scum based on Donny being scum? If Donny is scum, you basically have to be, unless you're town lying about your role and/or Donny's alignment. That would be pretty messed up and anti-town, so that's basically impossible.

I'm not saying I'm totally on board with xorxes' conviction here, but I don't see how his logic is circular.

[xorxes]

For me that's the main reason, it pretty much tells us Donny's alignment

Ayy, so here's my question. How?

If you flip town, he has to be town (no reason you would be lying about that).

If you flip scum, it doesn't matter that much, we got at least one. We don't get info about Donny, but we can look for connections to you.

[Nephthys]

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

I don't believe nor strongly disbelieve the 3P story.

My main case against emc is that I think Donny was scum, and for emc to be town it is required that Donny be town.

For me that's the main reason, it pretty much tells us Donny's alignment

We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Hmm. Forgive me if I have not yet found the way of looking at this that doesn't make it inconsistent.

I guess I can narrow it down to just "emc claimed Donny was town so I will scumread him for that", which is kind of poor reasoning from xorx.

Anyone else, thoughts?

Thats NAI.

The balance on you hangs on Donny. Anyone that believed that the Donny slip was real should be voting you.

[kgray]

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

But you are exactly Donny. According to you we need to take his D1 and your D2 to work out your role.

Sure, all of his posts and all of my posts after he died. But if you're scumreading me then you have no reason to believe that I'm Donny's role, do you?

Right. But the logic is if Donny is scum, then emc is scum. Not if emc is scum, Donny is scum, or if emc is scum then he took Donny's role.

[xorxes]

the only way you can be aligned with town is if Donny was town, and that's the part I have a hard time believing.

This is the part that I still don't get. If you don't believe what I'm saying about my role, then why do you still treat it as if it's true?

How am I treating it as if it's true? I don't want to lynch you based on that claim of yours.

[rdrivera2005]

Is the idea that emc would just track Jamie or brain, and if emc can tell us who they visit and they confirm, then they're both clear? What if Jamie or brain are also scum?

They won´t be clear, clear, but we consider them clear for a while. I hardly believe scum will let them live really long so we will have an answer. With so many roles around town best chance to win is to have a pool of clears or semi-clears.

You are aware of course that anyone we try to lynch will claim some role, right? So when whoever we try to lynch instead of emc claims a town role probably of similar value/testability as Tracker, what do we do?

We have to deal with it case by case. Scum doesn´t have an easy task choosing a fake claim and I don´t want to give tips to scum on scum tactics.
But I am not saying to not lynch emc because he claimed Tracker, but because I think he is town (I believe in his story, can´t find a logic reason to fake all this as scum or 3p).

[Chaqa]

Chaqa

- Why open that you need to +1. I see no benefit of town Chaqa doing this. As scum, its perhaps a reason for people to keep you alive.
- After 4 hours posts a read list.... what???? (also doesn't back up a scumread with a vote)
- I don't know to make of him saying Donny giving up is towny. Especially after he stated the slip is one of the best D1 catches we've ever had, it seems hedgy. Almost like he was hoping others would question their votes.
- I find it interesting how Chaqa said we need to kill or believe Donny only yet is very keen to test EMC. Some shift in logic there.
- Also he called a lurker when I had top 10 posts...

If EMC flips scum. Chaqa is scum.
If EMC flips town then Chaqa is likely not scum

Circumstances of Donny vs. EMC were that Donny made a slip, whereas EMC was a converted role. So of course I treat them differently.

[e.m.c^42]

Are you f-ing serious? We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

emc I'm missing something here. What's wrong with the logic that you could flip scum based on Donny being scum? If Donny is scum, you basically have to be, unless you're town lying about your role and/or Donny's alignment. That would be pretty messed up and anti-town, so that's basically impossible.

I'm not saying I'm totally on board with xorxes' conviction here, but I don't see how his logic is circular.

The problem lies in that if you genuinely believe that Donny was scum, it's incompatible with the idea that I'm being absolutely honest about being 3P that inherited his role. Unless, of course, you are the type of player that would trust everything a scum player says.

So say that Donny was scum, and I am now scum too. Why the hell would I say anything about his alignment to Chaqa? It's absolutely a benefit for me that no-one knows the flip. Why would I claim 3P, or tracker?

[xorxes]

@Vecna: What are you drinking on?

More serious questions:

@xorx: Is there more to emc's proposed lynch than Sunk Cost Fallacy? emc and Chaqa aren't allignment indicative of each other (UNLESS there is a 3P recruitment team, in which case I would think Chaqwa is a better target)

@flash: Why do you think massclaim is better now than it was yesterday (Or, more to the point, why have it so high on your list of options), and do you have any scumreads?

@Demon, it seems you're not reading the thread, so probably this answer won't reach you, but I will respond anyway: I want to lynch emc because I believe Donny was scum, and if Donny was scum emc has to be scum as well. No sunk cost fallacy there that I'm aware of.

[e.m.c^42]

But you are exactly Donny. According to you we need to take his D1 and your D2 to work out your role.

Sure, all of his posts and all of my posts after he died. But if you're scumreading me then you have no reason to believe that I'm Donny's role, do you?

Right. But the logic is if Donny is scum, then emc is scum. Not if emc is scum, Donny is scum, or if emc is scum then he took Donny's role.

What is the link between Donny and I, then? If I didn't say anything, there would be absolutely no relation between us two, correct?

[Chaqa]

Chaqa

- Why open that you need to +1. I see no benefit of town Chaqa doing this. As scum, its perhaps a reason for people to keep you alive.
- After 4 hours posts a read list.... what???? (also doesn't back up a scumread with a vote)
- I don't know to make of him saying Donny giving up is towny. Especially after he stated the slip is one of the best D1 catches we've ever had, it seems hedgy. Almost like he was hoping others would question their votes.
- I find it interesting how Chaqa said we need to kill or believe Donny only yet is very keen to test EMC. Some shift in logic there.
- Also he called a lurker when I had top 10 posts...

If EMC flips scum. Chaqa is scum.
If EMC flips town then Chaqa is likely not scum

Chaq had a whole thing about testing donny when donny claimed tracker.

The thread proves you are lying or not paying attention

So... Donny is claiming tracker. Thoughts:
1. This is a valuable role if town
2. This is an easily provable role

It does irk me, but I don't think scum would claim this lightly. We could do something like, ask 2 people to step forward who have visiting roles, but not super important ones, and tell Donny to pick one of them to track.

Then, that person could confirm who they visited after Donny reports.

That said, there's so much room for mafia manipulation that it may be too much of an investment. I say we either lynch him now, or presume his innocence and validity as Tracker going forward. No half-measures.

He also had this,

can you direct me to where he suggested testing Donny?

You... literally just posted it???

[Chaqa]

Chaqa can confirm this, but I had floated claiming some sort of oneshot retro scan, or another role that was simply linked to Donny. I didn't want to claim tracker until midgame at the very least.

Why did you tell Chaqa about your role if you wanted to keep it hidden?

I was going to out him if he didn't lol

[e.m.c^42]

the only way you can be aligned with town is if Donny was town, and that's the part I have a hard time believing.

This is the part that I still don't get. If you don't believe what I'm saying about my role, then why do you still treat it as if it's true?

How am I treating it as if it's true? I don't want to lynch you based on that claim of yours.

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

Does this not say that you are basing a scumread off of my claim? Someone else weigh in here.

[e.m.c^42]

Chaqa can confirm this, but I had floated claiming some sort of oneshot retro scan, or another role that was simply linked to Donny. I didn't want to claim tracker until midgame at the very least.

Why did you tell Chaqa about your role if you wanted to keep it hidden?

I was going to out him if he didn't lol

Wasn't he asking why I didn't lie to you in the first place? Lol

[rdrivera2005]

TLDR Rd strikes me as null.

@Rd

What makes Jamie and summit questionable to you?

Do you think bozo not making an impression is scum indicative and if so, why?

What I find odd about Jamiet is he more then once not readind closely the thread and asking things already discussed or obvious. When I made that comment he was pushing kgray about his vote on Sarah D1, when it was something discussed in the thread to be a backup in case someone messed with the main wagon (shoot him, commute him before EOD, etc).

Summit is the reaction to EON, and the Vecna crumbing 3P thing, it looks more like someone tryingt to show effot then real effort. But he isn´t on my top scumreads, I liked most of his other comments.

Bozo not making an impression is weird to me, I usually scumread him a lot, even when he is town, but I will not say it´s scum indicative. And I liked some comments he made after that post. At this point I would say Fox worries me more then Bozo.

[xorxes]

Are you f-ing serious? We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

Sorry, I don't understand the question. Am I being an idiot?

I believe Donny was scum. If Donny was scum, you have to be scum. Therefore, I think you are scum.

If there's a mistake in my logic, please point it out.

You can say that my premise is wrong, that I am wrong that Donny was scum, and maybe I am. But you're not saying that, you are arguing that I'm committing some logical fallacy, that my reasoning is wrong. That pisses me off, because I know you are smarter than that.

[e.m.c^42]

I keep on seeing "If Donny was scum emc must be scum", and there's not really been a proper answer :D

So what exactly is the fucking connection? Where is it? It can't be something that I said about him.

[Chaqa]

@food.

Please tell me how this indicates in any way that we should be testing Donny

That said, there's so much room for mafia manipulation that it may be too much of an investment. I say we either lynch him now, or presume his innocence and validity as Tracker going forward. No half-measures.

This is his FINAL paragraph. You know what people put in their final paragraph. Conclusion, how to move forward, the action they want.

Lynch him or presume his innocence is NOT saying "we should test him"

Y'all whack mboi

lol you assume I structure things like a normal person

[xorxes]

Are you f-ing serious? We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

In other words xorx cussed! This is a rare development.

[DemonRHK]

@Vecna: What are you drinking on?

More serious questions:

@xorx: Is there more to emc's proposed lynch than Sunk Cost Fallacy? emc and Chaqa aren't allignment indicative of each other (UNLESS there is a 3P recruitment team, in which case I would think Chaqwa is a better target)

@flash: Why do you think massclaim is better now than it was yesterday (Or, more to the point, why have it so high on your list of options), and do you have any scumreads?

@Demon, it seems you're not reading the thread, so probably this answer won't reach you, but I will respond anyway: I want to lynch emc because I believe Donny was scum, and if Donny was scum emc has to be scum as well. No sunk cost fallacy there that I'm aware of.

You're for lynching a player solely because (For all intents and purposes) you already lynched that slot once and thought it was scum then. That is pretty close to the definition of sunk cost. If he is scum it's 100% the correct play, but there are now so many moving parts on that it's looking less likely than before.

@emc: WHo is your top 3 (or 5) and your bottom as far as reads currently?