Confusing idealogies

[orathaic]

You appear to be confused, Brainbomb. Russia today is not communist or socialist at all. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Putin's Government is quite conservative and has much in common with US Republicanism, in fact.

I was under the impression that Russia is still run by Oligarchs or an Authoritatian Dictatorship?

Oligarchs (whether they are still in power or not) are a very distinct organising principle from a single state communist party...

Comminism doesn't requires authoritarian dictatorshop, nor are the two equivalent.

Not sure where you would get a contrary idea.

[CaptainFritz28]

Fair enough. Brainbomb was referring to the authoritarian parts of Putin's regime, and Jamie responded talking about Communism. It seemed that Jamie was equating the two, but now I see that I misunderstood.

[Jamiet99uk]

You appear to be confused, Brainbomb. Russia today is not communist or socialist at all. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991. Putin's Government is quite conservative and has much in common with US Republicanism, in fact.

I was under the impression that Russia is still run by Oligarchs or an Authoritatian Dictatorship?

What does that have to do with Socialism?

Russia is technically a democracy but almost all political and economic control is the the hands of a small elite of wealthy and well-connected people. Similar to the USA really.

[Jamiet99uk]

Fair enough. Brainbomb was referring to the authoritarian parts of Putin's regime, and Jamie responded talking about Communism. It seemed that Jamie was equating the two, but now I see that I misunderstood.

Uh, no. I was not the person that brought up communism.

Brainbomb made specific reference to communism in the first sentence of the opening post of this thread. I was responding to that post. I suggest you read it again.

[Jamiet99uk]

The Republican Party of the United States has long held the position that Democrats were communists; fascists and corrupt. Specifically focusing on the argument that big government, big taxes and wealth redistribution make democrats Russian Thugs.

Now as Trump has become ever popular their love for Vladimir Putin has increased. I was at a social gathering the other day where a very conservative individual was complimenting Putin for having the guts to murder his political rivals, was saying America needs to be more like russia and torture terror suspects by chopping off their limbs and appendages. overall saying Putin knows how to get things done.

How did we get here? Russia is far from being a democracy but I thought the Republican party hated dictators, hated corrupt socialist countries and dispised big goverment. Correct me if im wrong but isnt Russia a huge government? Which is very corrupt and still mostly just its same old communist identity?

Why are Trump Republicans self identifying now as pro big government - moderate communist dictators now? Am I overreaching making this assertion?

I have highlighted the multiple references to communism (and one to socialism) in Brainbomb's opening post, for the benefit of Capt.Fritz, who apparently totally failed to notice them.

[CaptainFritz28]

Ah! Thanks for the clarification. Clearly I had a lapse in observation.

I recognized that Brainbomb mentioned Communism/Socialism, but I had thought the major points of his post were in reference to authoritarianism.

[Crazy Anglican]

I don't think Biden is actually making most of the decisions and as such he's probably not a candidate I plan to vote for. I prefer my vote being used for Cornel West at this point.

Aww BB, weren't you the guy I had a spirited debate with back in 2016 (might have been another, but I thought it was you) and upon deciding to vote for Johnson you urged me not to throw my vote away? I Vote Biden, man. Any other vote is a vote for Trump.

If your concern is caused by internet commenters and the news you watch, don't worry too much about it. On the news and on the internet, the most extreme opinions get the most clicks, and thus rise to the top of everyone's attention. That doesn't mean that the majority agrees with it.

Perhaps, but I still think that the most conservative move you can make is to vote against the candidate that actively sought to upend the peaceful transfer of power in 2020-2021. January 6th absolutely cured me of ever voting for Trump (I never did) nor will I vote a third party. Take a look at the solid conservatives that are voicing their opposition to the man. Cheney and Romney aren't nutjobs. These are long term civil servants who are blowing the whistle on their own party. Doesn't that concern you?

[orathaic]

Let's be clear, any economic model can be authoritarian. Like a monarch with complete control of the state.

They could implement whatever type of system they wanted for the economy.

That said, a system where the monarchy retains power has to take into account the material reality of that state.

Contrasting the French and British monarchies, Britain tended toward spreading power out among the nobles to avoid rebellion, while France tended towards forcing nobles to attend court (and spending huge sums of money on clothes and jewels) to keep them under control (and thus away from their power base)...

Both examples had economic effects, but neither was the explicit goal of the Monarch. (Ie spending on French clothing and fashion likely had long term economic effects, and the spreading of power in the Britian is likely a large part of how the merchant classes grew and the society changed - far more gradually than the French revolution).

[orathaic]

That said "Comminism" explicitly has only ever been formed by revolution taking power and redistributing wealth, usually in the name of the people but actually in practice the state was the main beneficiary, and the party/state.

One party states tend towards authoritarian, though examples like the Soviet Union and Communist China are states where the state was authoritarian and centralised before the revolution and they didn't change too much, except replacing (in the Russian case) the aristocracy with the tip echelons of the party...

So the question remains whether you can have Comminism without being authoritarian? The alternative examples or democratic socialism are following a different less authoritarian mode of development, not redistributing all the wealth, and (for example Sweden) retaining privileged monarchies which have long since lost their control and power of the state.

You can question whether they are communist, by definition, but they are certainly economically more equal and closer to the socialist ideal of a class-less society without the associated authoritarian character (which many, rightly, consider a part of the Soviet and Chinese systems).

The point being, American Right wing support for the authoritarian regime which Putin organises does seem at odds with the typical anti-Big Government position, whether you conflate Comminism/Socialism with Big Government or not.

Maybe it can be resolved...

[orathaic]

Is the Right Wing fascination actually not so much about the state, it is about having a single strong leader, which they see as able to do no wrong?

Like cult worship? It is fascist leaning (also an ideology associated with authoritianism) rather than Communist Authoritarian. But it follows all the typical fascist patterns that we saw in Europe in the 30s.

Big government can mean strong military and police to enforce order/prevent revolution from redistribution of property, rather than big social welfare programmes to redistribute wealth and prevent the social problems associated with poverty and thus remove the possibility of revolution by giving the revolutionaries a potential peaceful way of attaining their goals...

I don't think there is a contradiction there at all.

One is pro-wealth accumulation (the dragon like Hoarding which Billionaires demonstrate) and the other is anti-poverty. Very different world views.

[CaptainFritz28]

One thing that I'll never understand is the people that do worship Trump like a cult. They are few and far between, but they do exist, which to me is rather mind-boggling. I've never had trouble with denouncing them, as I think the point of this thread is. The only trouble I have is with the characterization that a majority of people who vote for him or are Republican are this way.

With this in mind, I will address the points here referring to the extreme minority which worships Trump in a cultish manner.

Anyone who says they are pro limited government, but then supports unlimited power to one individual, is a hypocrite.
Anyone who says they are pro free market, but then supports greater tax burdens, is a hypocrite.
Anyone who denounces authoritarianism, but then points to an authoritarian regime as an example of good government, is a hypocrite.

This means that, especially because of point 2, most of the Republican politicians are hypocrites. If that's the claim being made here, I wholeheartedly agree.
That said, unfortunately I see no better alternative, which is really rather sad to me. I'd rather have hypocrites in office who at least keep our economy strong and our foreign policy good than those who would turn America into Portland or LA.