Annual Religious Thread

[Fluminator]

I think I made a couple over the years, but probably good to start fresh. We all develop and grow every year so I suspect we've evolved our beliefs since previous threads too.

One thing I've recently discovered is how quickly the New Atheist movement died out. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennet were heralded as the people who would shape culture and destroy religion, and now you basically hear nothing about them and even most modern atheists view them as completely shallow jerks.

But I think the most interesting part of them is they claimed removing religion would allow for a golden age of logic. But that didn't happen! I always rolled my eyes a little at religious arguments that "if you remove religion the framework of society crumbles" but we're kind of watching it in real time as our society is actively collapsing, and I wonder if the lack of religion is contributing to this.

[Jamiet99uk]

This looks important.

[Octavious]

Society is perpetually collapsing. But invariably it doesn't, and as "something not collapsing" is fundamentally uninteresting history invariably forgets how near to collapse things may have felt at the time.

Religion is always changing, with fashions coming and going over the years. I personally miss the days, not so long ago, when churches were populated mostly by people who had no strong beliefs, but went there largely out of habit and an opportunity to meet the neighbours. These days churches are dominated by true believers, who are often less fun and can be rather overly keen. But I am also aware that those days I fondly remember were really just a brief transitional period, and will never be a sustainable way of doing things

[Fluminator]

Society is perpetually collapsing. But invariably it doesn't, and as "something not collapsing" is fundamentally uninteresting history invariably forgets how near to collapse things may have felt at the time.

Religion is always changing, with fashions coming and going over the years. I personally miss the days, not so long ago, when churches were populated mostly by people who had no strong beliefs, but went there largely out of habit and an opportunity to meet the neighbours. These days churches are dominated by true believers, who are often less fun and can be rather overly keen. But I am also aware that those days I fondly remember were really just a brief transitional period, and will never be a sustainable way of doing things

That depends on the denomination you are a part of. Mainline churches are more in line with that view you desire, while Evangelical churches are more likely "true believers". That said Mainline churches seem to be fading away and I can't help but think that if churches are just social gatherings it's not going to be super sustainable.

I do feel bad for atheists who don't really have a weekly social gathering where you just check in on your neighbors and participate in life with each other though. (Like there are some substitutes out there but they just aren't the same)

[Jamiet99uk]

I do feel bad for atheists who don't really have a weekly social gathering where you just check in on your neighbors and participate in life with each other though. (Like there are some substitutes out there but they just aren't the same)

How do you know that?

Your social and cultural experiences are obviously somewhat limited, Flum. For instance, as you recently told us on Discord, you've never been to a gay bar. How do you know that atheists don't have rich social and communal experiences just because they don't go to Bible Club?

[Fluminator]

I don't think it's that weird for a straight person to never have been at a gay bar. How often do gay people go to straight bars?

But I like to think I have a diverse group of friends. I know Mennonites, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, a lot of Reformed people (who are basically the Christian version of atheists imo), and I do know a few actual atheists.

And the struggles my atheist friends go through aren't something I want to talk about since it was usually told in confidence but one general trend is they say they struggle to make friends as an adult since they have no place they consistently go to outside of work or family.

I know there are exceptions but it's a general trend I've noticed anecdotally. Would be interesting to see stats on it.

[flash2015]

I think I made a couple over the years, but probably good to start fresh. We all develop and grow every year so I suspect we've evolved our beliefs since previous threads too.

One thing I've recently discovered is how quickly the New Atheist movement died out. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennet were heralded as the people who would shape culture and destroy religion, and now you basically hear nothing about them and even most modern atheists view them as completely shallow jerks.

But I think the most interesting part of them is they claimed removing religion would allow for a golden age of logic. But that didn't happen! I always rolled my eyes a little at religious arguments that "if you remove religion the framework of society crumbles" but we're kind of watching it in real time as our society is actively collapsing, and I wonder if the lack of religion is contributing to this.

As an atheist/agnostic myself, I have had a lot of disappointment in this. I have followed atheist societies, skeptics societies etc. At least from my experience many atheists can exhibit as much zealotry in their beliefs as the religious people they claim to be better than. This fundamentalist zealotry appears to be part of the human condition, perhaps moderate religion is one way to keep it under control.

A big thing which really has started me in the last few years is the rising HATE of religious people. I have always had issues with certain parts of Christian morality but I understood where it came from. But the atheist fanatics believe only their morality is right and religious people are now EVIL. Or it is the general dividing people into "good" and "bad" (e.g. Trump supporters are not only wrong, they are EVIL). It blows my mind. These nutters are just as bad as the people they claim to be against.

[Jamiet99uk]

I don't think it's that weird for a straight person to never have been at a gay bar. How often do gay people go to straight bars?

Uh, all the time? Most bars are straight bars. What a bizarre question to even ask. See this reinforces my view that you are not very well-travelled, from a social perspective.

And the struggles my atheist friends go through aren't something I want to talk about since it was usually told in confidence but one general trend is they say they struggle to make friends as an adult since they have no place they consistently go to outside of work or family.

I know there are exceptions but it's a general trend I've noticed anecdotally. Would be interesting to see stats on it.

Why don't they find a bar they like, and consistently go there, and make friends with other people who go there? It's really quite easy. I know bar culture in the USA and Canada isn't quite the same as pub culture in the UK, but still.

From the way you're describing things it sounds like you live amongst a very religious community where atheists are a minority. Or, at the very least, in your social circles, the atheists that you are acquainted with tend to find themselves surrounded by large groups of practising religious types, from whom they feel slightly alienated.

I have a very large number of friends and am part of a number of partly over-lapping social circles. I don't have trouble making friends at all. But then, I am very outgoing and always on the look-out for opportunities to talk to interesting new people; I also put a lot of time into cultivating and maintaining my good friendships.

This coming weekend I am going to Dublin with my friend Steph, who is from Montreal. In three weeks I am going for a long weekend in Hesse in Germany where my friend Jenny lives. Coincidentally Jenny is also originally from Montreal and went to high school with Steph; however both temporarily lived in Durham, in the UK, for separate and un-related reasons, which is where I met them. (Steph still lives near Durham).

I do not require religion to have this active and warm social life.

[Jamiet99uk]

If you would like other insights into how it is possible to have a happy and fulfilling social life without the assistance of Jesus, do let me know.

[Fluminator]

I think I made a couple over the years, but probably good to start fresh. We all develop and grow every year so I suspect we've evolved our beliefs since previous threads too.

One thing I've recently discovered is how quickly the New Atheist movement died out. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennet were heralded as the people who would shape culture and destroy religion, and now you basically hear nothing about them and even most modern atheists view them as completely shallow jerks.

But I think the most interesting part of them is they claimed removing religion would allow for a golden age of logic. But that didn't happen! I always rolled my eyes a little at religious arguments that "if you remove religion the framework of society crumbles" but we're kind of watching it in real time as our society is actively collapsing, and I wonder if the lack of religion is contributing to this.

As an atheist/agnostic myself, I have had a lot of disappointment in this. I have followed atheist societies, skeptics societies etc. At least from my experience many atheists can exhibit as much zealotry in their beliefs as the religious people they claim to be better than. This fundamentalist zealotry appears to be part of the human condition, perhaps moderate religion is one way to keep it under control.

A big thing which really has started me in the last few years is the rising HATE of religious people. I have always had issues with certain parts of Christian morality but I understood where it came from. But the atheist fanatics believe only their morality is right and religious people are now EVIL. Or it is the general dividing people into "good" and "bad" (e.g. Trump supporters are not only wrong, they are EVIL). It blows my mind. These nutters are just as bad as the people they claim to be against.

I appreciate the insight. I think it's also somewhat clear that the economic pressure, climate change dread, and internet access to every problem/corruption/oppression on the planet is also ramping up the zealotry on all sides as things keep getting worse. I'm sort of expecting another event similar to the French Revolution soon.

I think one of the things that is scary about atheism to me personally is it's a newer view and it hasn't had as much time to really smooth out its system of proper behavior as some of the older religions have. In fact, one of the main parts of atheism is that there isn't a system that underlies the world and that people are essentially free to decide for themselves what's appropriate.

Catholicism for example has been around for thousands of years and have done some bad things over that period, but have had the time to learn from mistakes and such. (Like colonizing is bad). I think that might also play a role in that all the older religions are usually a lot more chill by now.

[Fluminator]

If you would like other insights into how it is possible to have a happy and fulfilling social life without the assistance of Jesus, do let me know.

I fully believe you're having a good social life and that makes me happy to hear. I do think it's possible, it's just a lot harder for some people (especially the type who don't like going to bars, either gay or straight bars)

I do also believe it's possible for atheists to avoid nihilism or existential dread but it's a lot harder and I'd be curious if you've overcome those in your experience? I could pass on what works for you when atheists talk to me about it.

[Jamiet99uk]

Existential dread? You mean, like, fear of death?

[Octavious]

I do feel bad for atheists who don't really have a weekly social gathering where you just check in on your neighbors and participate in life with each other though. (Like there are some substitutes out there but they just aren't the same)

How do you know that?

Your social and cultural experiences are obviously somewhat limited, Flum. For instance, as you recently told us on Discord, you've never been to a gay bar. How do you know that atheists don't have rich social and communal experiences just because they don't go to Bible Club?

Times change, mate. It's not like the old days when a bunch of you and one or two gay friends could go to the Queen of Hearts (or whichever pub or club happened to be flying the colours) and no one would bat an eyelid. There's an increasing feeling from a lot of gay people that straight people shouldn't be allowed in. I dare say this was always the case to some extent, but they tend to be a lot more vocal now.

It's not like this everywhere, but I'd definitely be cautious about going anywhere new unless someone had given it a recce beforehand.

I do also believe it's possible for atheists to avoid nihilism or existential dread but it's a lot harder and I'd be curious if you've overcome those in your experience? I could pass on what works for you when atheists talk to me about it.

Curious... I've often felt that the existential dread milarky is most commonly felt by believers who have lost their faith and find themselves staring into an abyss they've had no preparation for. Most atheists or agnostics seem rather comfortable with death, satisfied that they will live on through their children or through the ripples of how they've influenced the world and not being particularly bothered about their upcoming big sleep.

To be honest, I find the idea of heaven (an eternity of inconsequential existence during which your time on earth, all your achievements, your loves, your choices becomes an increasingly infinitesimal aspect of yourself) to be far more troubling a concept than simple oblivion after a life well lived.

[Fluminator]

Existential dread? You mean, like, fear of death?

I think it's more the "nothing matters, everything is meaningless" or "the universe can only be an accident" type thinking. I often hear them talk about how being a blip in the universe that is nothing more than an accident is troubling.

I do also believe it's possible for atheists to avoid nihilism or existential dread but it's a lot harder and I'd be curious if you've overcome those in your experience? I could pass on what works for you when atheists talk to me about it.

Curious... I've often felt that the existential dread milarky is most commonly felt by believers who have lost their faith and find themselves staring into an abyss they've had no preparation for. Most atheists or agnostics seem rather comfortable with death, satisfied that they will live on through their children or through the ripples of how they've influenced the world and not being particularly bothered about their upcoming big sleep.

To be honest, I find the idea of heaven (an eternity of inconsequential existence during which your time on earth, all your achievements, your loves, your choices becomes an increasingly infinitesimal aspect of yourself) to be far more troubling a concept than simple oblivion after a life well lived.

I don't know if death is necessarily the part atheists struggle with. I know a few who do, but I think most people would fear an eternity in this current state more. I agree an eternity of inconsequential existence would be miserable. The show "The Good Place" did a good example of that flopping.

I can't really relate because I've experienced enough stuff that I'm personally convinced there's a lot more to existence than highly evolved apes on this singular planet in the universe, but I would be interested in advice to give to people who are convinced this is the peak and struggling with it.

[Jamiet99uk]

I do feel bad for atheists who don't really have a weekly social gathering where you just check in on your neighbors and participate in life with each other though. (Like there are some substitutes out there but they just aren't the same)

How do you know that?

Your social and cultural experiences are obviously somewhat limited, Flum. For instance, as you recently told us on Discord, you've never been to a gay bar. How do you know that atheists don't have rich social and communal experiences just because they don't go to Bible Club?

Times change, mate. It's not like the old days when a bunch of you and one or two gay friends could go to the Queen of Hearts (or whichever pub or club happened to be flying the colours) and no one would bat an eyelid. There's an increasing feeling from a lot of gay people that straight people shouldn't be allowed in. I dare say this was always the case to some extent, but they tend to be a lot more vocal now.

It's not like this everywhere, but I'd definitely be cautious about going anywhere new unless someone had given it a recce beforehand.

That is not my experience. I have been to gay bars in Newcastle a few times this year and not observed any such tension.

[Jamiet99uk]

Existential dread? You mean, like, fear of death?

I think it's more the "nothing matters, everything is meaningless" or "the universe can only be an accident" type thinking. I often hear them talk about how being a blip in the universe that is nothing more than an accident is troubling.

I do also believe it's possible for atheists to avoid nihilism or existential dread but it's a lot harder and I'd be curious if you've overcome those in your experience? I could pass on what works for you when atheists talk to me about it.

Curious... I've often felt that the existential dread milarky is most commonly felt by believers who have lost their faith and find themselves staring into an abyss they've had no preparation for. Most atheists or agnostics seem rather comfortable with death, satisfied that they will live on through their children or through the ripples of how they've influenced the world and not being particularly bothered about their upcoming big sleep.

To be honest, I find the idea of heaven (an eternity of inconsequential existence during which your time on earth, all your achievements, your loves, your choices becomes an increasingly infinitesimal aspect of yourself) to be far more troubling a concept than simple oblivion after a life well lived.

I don't know if death is necessarily the part atheists struggle with. I know a few who do, but I think most people would fear an eternity in this current state more. I agree an eternity of inconsequential existence would be miserable. The show "The Good Place" did a good example of that flopping.

I can't really relate because I've experienced enough stuff that I'm personally convinced there's a lot more to existence than highly evolved apes on this singular planet in the universe, but I would be interested in advice to give to people who are convinced this is the peak and struggling with it.

I do not believe the universe has an intelligent creator.
This does not bother me in the slightest.

I fear death, because I am sure nothing comes after it.
I turn that fear into a positive, to the greatest extent I can, by trying to ensure I appreciate, and show appreciation for, the things which provide love and joy in my life. I plan for near-future events but do very little long-term planning and try to live some of my life each day, because in the long run, we are all dead.

[Octavious]

That is not my experience. I have been to gay bars in Newcastle a few times this year and not observed any such tension.

Could this be your version of the "I've never seen any racism" statement? Hopefully not. Hopefully Newcastle continues to be as it used to be

I fear death, because I am sure nothing comes after it.
I turn that fear into a positive, to the greatest extent I can, by trying to ensure I appreciate, and show appreciation for, the things which provide love and joy in my life. I plan for near-future events but do very little long-term planning and try to live some of my life each day, because in the long run, we are all dead.

I try to live each day as if it could be my very last opportunity to have a lie in and snooze on the sofa with a good book and a cuppa. Imagine a life ruined by feeling obliged to jump out of aeroplanes, or take part in paddleboarding and bouldering ?

Death is only a bugger because it's not much fun for the people left behind. Loads of stuff comes after it, just without you in it. If everything is in order it's no biggie.

I guess a lot of it is about how you view time. Death does not wipe you from existence. Time is just another dimension. The me writing this is just as much part of the universe as the me walking through the woods yesterday afternoon or the me eating a curry this evening. There's a little bit of uncertainty about the curry, but in fairness there's a fair amount of uncertainty about a lot of what happened in my past as well. The me eating the curry won't be entirely confident about the me writing this either, but they are all me and they are all real, and the lack of me in 2223, or indeed 1823, doesn't seem to be having any adverse impact on any of me

[orathaic]

There was an interesting point about making friends somewhere above.

It does indeed get harder, a lot of my peers are starting to settle down and have families, and thus there are a lot fewer peer going out and meeting people.

That said, Ireland has one big alternative to the Church and that is the GAA (Gaelic athletic association) basically ametuer (Gaelic) sports clubs all over the club which serve a significant social functions.

Among older folks there have seen a number of men's shed springing up in recent decades, and even now some women's sheds. These groups initially focussed on providing activities and a social outlet for older members of the community and are particularly helpful for older individuals who have retired or who have lost their partner.

Basically i entirely agree that there is a need to have structures which help people get out and make friends. And I think there has been a strong response to that need (at least across Ireland).

[orathaic]

On religious extremism, the 'New Atheists' and the immediate collapse of society.

I think that as a culture we have drifted to the extremes, social media has not been a positive force, and I think that, rather than religious beliefs, is the biggest factor driving this change.

We no longer have a single powerful national narrative (from a select bunch of media outlets, or a major state operated TV station ) everyone is free to fund their own narratives. And this is great some minorities, LGBT+ folks who might never have met another person with the same story as themselves (in their small rural village) now fund supportive communities online, and hate groups can fall into ever more extreme echo chambers.

There is good and bad there. And I think populist politicians taking advantage of this landscape are the biggest issue (along with a rise in fascism). And in some ways worship of an ideologue substitutibg for religion is a part of this. But most people do indeed have some belief system, when that is a dedication to the pursuit of wealth, or fervent atheism, or anarchy. Not all of these groups are threats to human rights (the way Trumpism is). So I would not assume that these changes have anything to do with the lose of belief. Merely what those beliefs are currently focussed on (like conspiracy theories), and how they are shared (social media echo chambers).

[orathaic]

On Nihilism

I know I have said this before, but i find the philosophy like an unfinished sentence.

It goes "Life has no meaning..."

And Existentialism compeltes that sentence with "... Except the meaning you make for yourself."

Existential dreas is something I have only briefly experiencing, and it is horrible. But most of the time I am just happy to live a privileged life, however long it happens to be.