WHO Promotes Quackery

[Octavious]

Amazingly enough this isn't conspiracy corner, but the truth.

The World Health Organisation received a fair amount of flak in recent years, some deserved, over their decision making during Covid, but mostly those decisions could be described as an attempt to follow the science hampered by the science being full of holes that tended to be filled with politics.

Recently, however, elements of the WHO seem to have abandoned science completely and now seem to be promoting charlatans and snake oil salesmen as legitimate "first stops to health"

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/16903531 ... kMdQw&s=19

The likes of Homeopathy and Naturopathy are not first stops on the road to health, of course, but expensive diversions that can be potentially harmful wastes of time. The WHO us in danger of trashing its reputation if it continues with this nonsense.

[Jamiet99uk]

I agree. Nobody should be promoting homeopathy, it is quack nonsense and by giving it any suggestion of legitimacy, the WHO could inadvertently be directing people away from real medicines that might help them. Very foolish.

[orathaic]

1) Did the WHO promote those in asking a question?
2) are they not correct that millions already practice these approaches?
3) the NHS has (in the past at least) put money into homeopathy) and some of the research actually showed that despite homeopathy's lack of chemical benefits, their calm and caring environment, the time taken with each patient and the friendly approach to their patients actually lead to better outcomes than actual medical care on its own.

Which given how ineffective it is chemically is a pretty poor indictment of the medical system. And something we need to learn (stress does have a negative effect on the body, leading to worse immune responces, and a whole host of other problems, especially chronic stress. And unfortunately the medical system can be very stressful for some adults...)

To be clear, i am not advocating from homeopathy, i am advocating for learning from the practicioners of homeopathy and figuring out how to provide the level of care they do for every patient.

[Jamiet99uk]

1) Did the WHO promote those in asking a question?
2) are they not correct that millions already practice these approaches?
3) the NHS has (in the past at least) put money into homeopathy) and some of the research actually showed that despite homeopathy's lack of chemical benefits, their calm and caring environment, the time taken with each patient and the friendly approach to their patients actually lead to better outcomes than actual medical care on its own.

Which given how ineffective it is chemically is a pretty poor indictment of the medical system. And something we need to learn (stress does have a negative effect on the body, leading to worse immune responces, and a whole host of other problems, especially chronic stress. And unfortunately the medical system can be very stressful for some adults...)

To be clear, i am not advocating from homeopathy, i am advocating for learning from the practicioners of homeopathy and figuring out how to provide the level of care they do for every patient.

What research?

[orathaic]

1) Did the WHO promote those in asking a question?
2) are they not correct that millions already practice these approaches?
3) the NHS has (in the past at least) put money into homeopathy) and some of the research actually showed that despite homeopathy's lack of chemical benefits, their calm and caring environment, the time taken with each patient and the friendly approach to their patients actually lead to better outcomes than actual medical care on its own.

Which given how ineffective it is chemically is a pretty poor indictment of the medical system. And something we need to learn (stress does have a negative effect on the body, leading to worse immune responces, and a whole host of other problems, especially chronic stress. And unfortunately the medical system can be very stressful for some adults...)

To be clear, i am not advocating from homeopathy, i am advocating for learning from the practicioners of homeopathy and figuring out how to provide the level of care they do for every patient.

What research?

You know what, i can't find anything now, but the NHS funded homeopathy until 2017, and all the articles i can find now are to justify why they stopped.

They do also say that homeopathy is no more effective than a placebo - which is supported by the claims i am making above. But the placebo effect is real. You can make people feel better by giving them a placebo, and you can block it by injecting a drug which prevents the placebo effect. That is, there is an underlying chemical effect of the placebo.

I will look for the research i am remembering, and see if i can come up with anything solid.

[orathaic]

In fact, the research i have found argued that the studies of homeopathy which do show effectiveness are invalid (due to statistics, cherry picking and not registerín tghe trial until after they have gotten the result the wanted).

Which could be used to undermine any research i did find backing up my previous claims: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... thy-trials

[Jamiet99uk]

Yes if you make people feel calm and cared for, that's good for them.

Letting an anxious child play with a kitten will help them feel less anxious.

Prescribing kittens as a cure for cancer is inappropriate and should not be allowed.

Homeopathy doesn't cure diseases. It is not a treatment. Letting people think homeopathy can cure serious illness will cause needless death.

Dying of preventable illnesses is not good for a person's wellbeing.

[orathaic]

Giving ppl drugs and telling them it will help triggers the placebo effect, making them believe the same drugs will have serious side effects will massively increase the rate of side effects.

So I don't think it is just as simple as playing with a kitten (though that may also be limited in effectiveness of the small child is scared of cats). You have to lie to them to trigger the main effect.

But the only point is was making was that IF more time and care given to patients can be shown to increase their survival rates, as i think was the only benefit from Homeopathy hospital in the UK (i have now learned a little bit more about their history and... Wow). Then we should take that information and apply it to all medical facilities.

As for cancer, there are infact certain types of cancer where talking to other cancer patients increases life-span and slows the cnacer's growth. Times when the absence of any effective chemical treatment means your only option is group therapy, and patients who only have this option tend to better than those who don't engage in peer support groups.

They still die, but that doesn't mean everyone who suffers from curable cancers couldn't benefit from similar supports.

Still in the case where they are going to die anyway, there is no harm sending them to get homeopathy.

[orathaic]

As for the WHO

Their website explains why the study traditional and complimentary medicine:

For centuries, traditional, indigenous and ancestral knowledge has been an integral resource for health in households and communities, and it continues to form a significant part of healthcare in many regions. One hundred seventy of WHO’s 194 Member States have reported on the use of herbal medicines, acupuncture, yoga, indigenous therapies and other forms of traditional medicines. Many countries recognize traditional medicine as a valuable source of healthcare and have taken steps to integrate practices, products and practitioners into their national systems.

Today, traditional medicine has become a global phenomenon; the demand is growing, with patients seeking greater agency and ownership of their health and well-being and seeking more compassionate and personalized health care. For millions, especially those living in remote and rural areas, it continues to be the first choice for health and well-being, offering care that is culturally acceptable, available and affordable.

WHO’s work on traditional medicine is a response to the requests from countries for evidence and data to inform policies and practice, global standards and regulations to ensure safety, quality and equitable access.

The 2018 Declaration of Astana on primary health care acknowledges the need to include traditional medicine knowledge and technologies in the delivery of primary health care – a cornerstone of health systems – in pursuit of health for all.

https://www.who.int/news-room/questions ... l-medicine

[Jamiet99uk]

Irrelevant.

Homeopathy is not a centuries old indigenous or ancestral medicine.

It's pseudoscientific quack nonsense invented in the early 1800s by some German nutcase. Its practice should be actively banned in civilised countries.

[Jamiet99uk]

Public bodies should not fund or endorse homeopathy any more than they should fund or endorse Scientology, pseudomathematics, or crystal therapy.

[orathaic]

Well it looks like the only Public body doing so was the NHS, and the point the WHO is making is that to maximise health you need to meet people where they are. If they don't trust doctors or surgeons (and for the early decades of Homeopathy's invention, surgeons were pretty hit and miss) then there is no use in just advising them to go see a doctor/surgeon.

That said, i see nothing there about funding the practice, they mostly talk about getting standards of care so those traditional practicioners can be monitored to some standard set by those nations.

Basically bringing all traditional and complimentary practioners into the tent (so ultimately they will be able to offer better quality of care) rather than gate-keeping to have them outside the tent (and effectively preventing their patients from recording quality care - or the benefit of experiences from western practicioners).

But yes, the WHO does acknowledge, rather than fund, the importance these Woo/magical thinking has in the health of millions of people.

If you have evidence that they are supporting public funding for homeopathy, then i would love to see it.

[Jamiet99uk]

If you have evidence that they are supporting public funding for homeopathy, then i would love to see it.

They are using their sizeable marketing resources to promote it and grant it a legitimacy that will only assist the quack peddlers of homeopathy in selling their non-existent, made up, false products.

[Octavious]

Irrelevant.

Homeopathy is not a centuries old indigenous or ancestral medicine.

It's pseudoscientific quack nonsense invented in the early 1800s by some German nutcase. Its practice should be actively banned in civilised countries.

One wonders what happens to a homeopath when they are swimming in the sea and a few miles down the coast a child takes a piss in it...

Still in the case where they are going to die anyway, there is no harm sending them to get homeopathy.

Aside from the fact that they have spent a significant chunk of the precious little time they have left enriching charlatans and bottom feeding parasitical scum? Really, ora? They are essentially walking corpses so who cares if they are robbed and cheated? Is that really your argument?

[orathaic]

If the person is willing to spend money on their placebos, and medicine can't do anything, then this is actually better than anything else.

Rare that it is actually the best option, but each person is going to make their own decision about who they trust and you can't just ignore them because they make choices you don't like.

[Octavious]

If the person is willing to spend money on their placebos, and medicine can't do anything, then this is actually better than anything else.

Why?

Rare that it is actually the best option, but each person is going to make their own decision about who they trust and you can't just ignore them because they make choices you don't like.

Ignore them in what sense? I would shut down the homeopaths as fraudulent operators, and arrest the ones who operate immediately. There will always be people who will daft decisions, but surely you can see that putting up a neon sign saying "have you considered snake oil? Lots of people do" is a far worse strategy than just promoting real medicine, and infinitely worse than cracking down on snake oil salesmen?

What the WHO are doing would be on a par with the citizens advice bureau listing loan sharks as a possible route out of short term financial difficulties. It is utterly wrong

[Jamiet99uk]

One wonders what happens to a homeopath when they are swimming in the sea and a few miles down the coast a child takes a piss in it...

I would assume the child is not a Level III Practitioner in Homeopathic medicine trained and certified by the College Of Naturopathic Bullshit and has not paid the required £500 fee to obtain a nice framed certificate.

Therefore, of course, nothing happens.

You need hours of training and a refined set of skills to achieve results through homeopathic practice, any fule kno dat.

[Jamiet99uk]

If the person is willing to spend money on their placebos, and medicine can't do anything, then this is actually better than anything else.

This is the problem. Over the years there have been many documented cases of people who should have been receiving proper medical treatment dying because they or their families believed that homeopathy would cure them instead.

Promoting and legitimising homeopathy risks killing people by turning them away from real actual medical treatment that might save them.

Examples:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20100 ... 0treatment.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50431.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... ple-jailed

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/a ... ct/2602995

[Jamiet99uk]

Rare that it is actually the best option, but each person is going to make their own decision about who they trust and you can't just ignore them because they make choices you don't like.

Ignore them in what sense? I would shut down the homeopaths as fraudulent operators, and arrest the ones who operate immediately. There will always be people who will daft decisions, but surely you can see that putting up a neon sign saying "have you considered snake oil? Lots of people do" is a far worse strategy than just promoting real medicine, and infinitely worse than cracking down on snake oil salesmen?

What the WHO are doing would be on a par with the citizens advice bureau listing loan sharks as a possible route out of short term financial difficulties. It is utterly wrong

Completely agree. This is certainly an issue where Octavious and I appear to be of exactly the same view.

Homeopathy endangers people and its practitioners are fraudsters. Anyone charging money for homeopathic treatments, on the basis of claims that they are genuine medical treatments, is committing fraud and should go to jail.

[orathaic]

If the person is willing to spend money on their placebos, and medicine can't do anything, then this is actually better than anything else.

This is the problem. Over the years there have been many documented cases of people who should have been receiving proper medical treatment dying because they or their families believed that homeopathy would cure them instead.

Promoting and legitimising homeopathy risks killing people by turning them away from real actual medical treatment that might save them.

Examples:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20100 ... 0treatment.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50431.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... ple-jailed

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/a ... ct/2602995

I am afraid these are exactly the people who need to be met where they are, rather than forced underground.

Those who do not trust or believe in the medical system need to be i cluded rather than pushed further away, you are not wrong that this is tragic, but you are wrong about how to help.