What is the Green Party for?

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Octavious
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What is the Green Party for?

#1 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:05 pm

Just over a year ago Germany got a new cabinet. Merkel was gone, and in her place was Scholz leading a coalition of the SDP, FDP, and the Greens. Although they've been in power before, this marked a high watermark for the Greens in terms of popularity and power...

And here we are at the start of 2023, with the village of Lützerath about to be destroyed to make space for German coal mining expansion. The type of coal in question being the particularly unpleasant lignite. One wonders whether the people who voted Green are satisfied that their vote counted. One wonders if the Green Party have any red lines they will not cross.

What is the point of the Green Party?
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#2 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:27 pm

Given the content of the OP, your question is what is the point of the political party "Alliance 90/The Greens", more commonly known as "Die Grünen" yes?

Or are you asking what is the point of environmentally-focussed political movements in a far more general sense?
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#3 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:36 pm

To answer the former question, you're right to draw attention to this episode. There's a lot to learn here about the limitations of coalition government. Some of this may be familiar to you as a professed Liberal Democrat. You'll have clear memories, I'm sure, of your party becoming the junior partner in a coalition with the Tories in 2010 and immediately having to scrap some of their key pledges, most memorably on tuition fees. In this case it sounds to me like the German greens are very much the third-placed partner in the so-called "traffic light" coalition, and are being forced into a very difficult position here.

I think that if I was in Germany, I would be calling for this to be a red line, and I would be calling on my Green representatives to walk out of the coalition (or at least to threaten to do so).

The official line presented by Die Grüne is that this is part of a deal to phase close all coal power plants in North-Rhine Westphalia in 2030, rather than the target date of 2038 previously planned. So, they're taking a utilitarian standpoint and arguing that there's a net environmental benefit.

But in terms of public perception, and the feelings of green activists, clearly it's not a good look.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#4 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:33 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:36 pm
In this case it sounds to me like the German greens are very much the third-placed partner in the so-called "traffic light" coalition, and are being forced into a very difficult position here.
It does indeed sound like that, and yet that's not really true. In previous coalitions (back around the turn of the millennium) they very much were a junior partner, with the SDP on around 40% of the vote and the Greens not quite making double figures. In this coalition they are the smaller party, but the breakdown of the vote was much closer at approximately 25, 25, 15. This has given them far more power and a good number of powerful cabinet positions. They are not minnows, but genuine partners.

As far as the limits of coalition government go, a good example would be the performance of the DUP. They managed to exert a vast amount of influence over the much larger Tory party. Back in the days of the Tory Lib Dem coalition I was a Conservative voter, and the Lib Dems were able to influence policy a lot to the betterment of governance. The Lib Dems were also able to insist on what they deeply cared about and prevent anything they found too objectionable. Where they failed was spending too much of their influence on a referendum on first past the post which they'd failed to make the public care about, and in failing to properly defend the tuition fee policy which was their graduate tax in all but name. I'd sum it up as significant power with abysmal leadership

So I'd say that the Greens easily have the power to stop this if they consider it a priority, and I haven't the foggiest idea why they're not. It feels anti-Green at the most fundamental level, like the DUP voting for rule from Dublin, Labour banning union membership, or the Tories insisting on voter identi... erm... on the Communist Manifesto being taught as part of the national curriculum
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#5 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:35 pm

As for your first question, I believe I'm right in saying that European Green parties are far more closely linked than typical political parties. Or at least that's always been my perception. Regardless, the behaviour of one will impact on all.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#6 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:02 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:33 pm
So I'd say that the Greens easily have the power to stop this if they consider it a priority, and I haven't the foggiest idea why they're not. It feels anti-Green at the most fundamental level, like the DUP voting for rule from Dublin, Labour banning union membership, or the Tories insisting on voter identi... erm... on the Communist Manifesto being taught as part of the national curriculum
Well I've told you what their stated reasoning is.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#7 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:37 pm

Yeah, which if true seems to be an extremely short sighted policy. The visuals of protesters doing battle with open cast coal miners whilst the Greens bat for the wrong side has the potential to do them massive harm. And all for the sake of promises of jam in the future? If the Greens are punished for this in the next election, which seems rather likely, and they cease to be a vital part of a coalition, then any promises made to them will be utterly meaningless.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#8 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:07 pm

I agree with you that it's not a good look. I think they've dealt with it poorly.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#9 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:16 am

To answer only the title question. Green Parties have refelcted a broader concern about the environment and forced every other political party (worth their salt) to have an environmental policy. Which wasn't always the case.

I'm not sure about the idea of an Overton window but just by talking about the subject you can force your opponents to respond. This changes the conversation.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#10 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:52 am

And to respond to the point about the DUP, they agree* with the Tories in most policy issues, thus have little interest in changing policy (except around Northern Ireland). And their what ~8 seats was enough to credibly bring down the government but not choose policy items anyway.

So they we're in a very different sort of coalition. Knowing they had nothing to lose by bringing down the government (because they either had no say in most policies, or they liked the Tory positions anyway) and really cared about a few things (i forget, was it messing up Brexit for Northern Ireland and generally screwing things up?)

The German Greens by contrast sound like they are getting lots of Compromises through and could lose them all if they pull out (i don't know if either of these things are true, just trusting the info presented in this thread).

*Ok, the Tory are not Conservative enough for the DUP in many areas, given the DUP's opposition for abortion in Northern Ireland, i am sure there are many other issues which they accept they can only control for Northern Irish matters... But still, they are in a unique position that the rules in NI are able to be set whether they collapse the British government or not.

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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#11 Post by Octavious » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:01 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:16 am
To answer only the title question. Green Parties have refelcted a broader concern about the environment and forced every other political party (worth their salt) to have an environmental policy. Which wasn't always the case.

I'm not sure about the idea of an Overton window but just by talking about the subject you can force your opponents to respond. This changes the conversation.
Perhaps, although I've often wondered whether by existing they do more harm than good. The UK Greens draw predominantly from environmentalist left leaning people, who otherwise would reside predominantly in the Labour and Lib Dem parties. Whilst the existence of a Green Party may well be a positive motivator for them to seriously consider environmental policy, I'm not convinced that it's a larger motivator than simply having all those people as part of your party.

I've also always wondered whether the Greens being overtly left wing and effectively excluding right wing environmentalists has greatly damaged the environmental movement. The right leaning green voice is significantly more pro-nuclear and focuses on the preservation of habitats and the natural environment in a way that is more easily understood by the man in the street. It is unfortunate that this voice tends to be smothered by the prevailing narrative.
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#12 Post by orathaic » Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:26 am

Octavious wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:01 pm
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:16 am
To answer only the title question. Green Parties have refelcted a broader concern about the environment and forced every other political party (worth their salt) to have an environmental policy. Which wasn't always the case.

I'm not sure about the idea of an Overton window but just by talking about the subject you can force your opponents to respond. This changes the conversation.
Perhaps, although I've often wondered whether by existing they do more harm than good. The UK Greens draw predominantly from environmentalist left leaning people, who otherwise would reside predominantly in the Labour and Lib Dem parties. Whilst the existence of a Green Party may well be a positive motivator for them to seriously consider environmental policy, I'm not convinced that it's a larger motivator than simply having all those people as part of your party.

I've also always wondered whether the Greens being overtly left wing and effectively excluding right wing environmentalists has greatly damaged the environmental movement. The right leaning green voice is significantly more pro-nuclear and focuses on the preservation of habitats and the natural environment in a way that is more easily understood by the man in the street. It is unfortunate that this voice tends to be smothered by the prevailing narrative.
It is so weird that you see Greens as overtoy left wing, when the Irish Greens have been in power with two centre right-wing parties (propping up a government which couldn't have made a majority without them) where the alternative would have been a coalition of left wing parties.

Greens members are predominantly wealthy middle/upper-middle class individuals with a conscience, who have time to worry about the environment and appear to lean right wing as much as left wing in Ireland.

Maybe it is different when the electoral system actually allows, even requires, a coalition govt. But the choice of coalition partners speaks volumes (a lot of green party voters have said never again, and will move towards voting left/nationalist (which is a left ish option in Ireland, because the United Ireland political party was stuck looking for voted from people who want to change the status quo, while the two other Republican parties favour not rocking the boat, which had been floating so nicely until Brexit).

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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#13 Post by Octavious » Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:05 am

With all due respect, Ireland has always been something of an anomaly as far as politics goes. No other nation, to my knowledge, has managed to create a system with two dominant parties where both parties are centre - right. I don't think that it makes for a particularly good yardstick to measure European politics by.

British Greens are distinctly left wing, and everything I have read on the subject suggests mainland Europe follows similar lines
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Re: What is the Green Party for?

#14 Post by orathaic » Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:17 am

Octavious wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:05 am
With all due respect, Ireland has always been something of an anomaly as far as politics goes. No other nation, to my knowledge, has managed to create a system with two dominant parties where both parties are centre - right. I don't think that it makes for a particularly good yardstick to measure European politics by.

British Greens are distinctly left wing, and everything I have read on the subject suggests mainland Europe follows similar lines
I would just like to note, we didn't 'create a system', it was a legacy system left in place by British administrators, whether it was intended to force to formation of coalition governments (and avoid a single strong nationalist group coming to power who might have threatened NI) is unclear, but i have heard the claim made.

But yeah, it is unusual, a direct influence of the Irish civil war, but an indirect influence of the falling population for the first 40 or so years of the state's existence.

When all the young people keep emigrating, only those with stable jobs, or land, or those too poor to emmigrate end up staying (and that latter group are probably less likely to vote). So i would speculate those voters who remained were more conservative/had more to lose.

That said, i don't see why this would make the green party more right wing. They are still made up of the same class of voters (wealthy middle/upper-middle class). Do other European countries have better electoral systems thanfirst past the post?

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