The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

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flash2015
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The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#1 Post by flash2015 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:21 am

Is it all over for him now...or is there any hope that he can somehow survive?

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#2 Post by Octavious » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:09 am

Of course not. He's been a dead man walking for months. The Tories want him to stay as PM long enough to take the blame for the shit that hasn't hit the fan yet (notably the energy price rises that are coming in October). Then the new Tory leader comes in, acts decisively to fix the problem, and enjoys something of a honeymoon period.

That’s why Boris isn't being allowed to leave his post until the autumn
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#3 Post by Octavious » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:14 am

Well... They're going to try and keep him there anyway. It may not be possible, but I don't know who'd be daft enough to take the job as caretaker.
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#4 Post by Fluminator » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:28 pm

Good riddance, he never should have been Prime Minister in the first place
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#5 Post by Fluminator » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:33 pm

Remember when the media was just grilling Corbyn as being anti-Semitic for saying that maybe Israel shouldn't be so bad to Palestine?

Meanwhile it covered nothing about Boris's life and scandals.

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#6 Post by worcej » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:05 pm

So what happens now? I know nothing of the UK’s system - new elections? New figurehead?

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#7 Post by Octavious » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:23 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:33 pm
Remember when the media was just grilling Corbyn as being anti-Semitic for saying that maybe Israel shouldn't be so bad to Palestine?

Meanwhile it covered nothing about Boris's life and scandals.
Actually, no. I don't recall the media ever not covering Boris' scandals
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#8 Post by Octavious » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:46 pm

worcej wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:05 pm
So what happens now? I know nothing of the UK’s system - new elections? New figurehead?
The Tories choose a new leader. Potential PMs need to be nominated by 8 MPs, and from this group Conservative MPs vote for a shortlist of two. The final decision is given to the Party membership. The winner has the backing of the Tory Party and, as they command an impressive majority in Parliament, this person will inevitably be chosen as the Prime Minister.

The conservatives then will have to decide between carrying on until the end of their term in power or calling for early elections. If they decide against elections they will be attacked by the opposition as cowards and lacking a democratic mandate, much as Labour's Gordan Brown was when he took over from Blair. But if the state of the economy is not looking great the argument for having their new PM wait for a more promising battleground may be the more tempting option. Ultimately when the people vote they will deliver their verdict on whether or not they approve of what the Tories choose to do.
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#9 Post by orathaic » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:33 pm

worcej wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:05 pm
So what happens now? I know nothing of the UK’s system - new elections? New figurehead?
In short, the representatives continue to represent their constituents, and a new government will be formed.

Johnson was elected by the people as an Member of Parliament (MP), it was the choice of his party to make him party leader which left him as Prime Minister. So now that they have unchosen him, whoever they want (presumably one of their elected MPs, but i don't know, could and unelected Tory Lord (member of the House of Lords) be selected as PM?)

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#10 Post by Octavious » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:57 pm

I believe it is possible. Lords have been the Prime Minister in the past, certainly, but not for some time. I think the last one renounced his Lordship when he became PM. There are rules these days against it, but I believe they are Party rules rather than laws and Party rules can be changed without too much difficulty.

It's a moot point, though. The amount of ammunition having an unelected leader would give the opposition makes it politically a non-starter .
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#11 Post by orathaic » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:01 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:57 pm
I believe it is possible. Lords have been the Prime Minister in the past, certainly, but not for some time. I think the last one renounced his Lordship when he became PM. There are rules these days against it, but I believe they are Party rules rather than laws and Party rules can be changed without too much difficulty.

It's a moot point, though. The amount of ammunition having an unelected leader would give the opposition makes it politically a non-starter .
I would got further and assume, apart from party rules, there is nothing to stop the appointment of Prince Charles, or Ricky Jervais, to the position. Or some civil servant who is willing to take the role of caretaker PM on (in the more likely to happen suggestion).

Though i suspect laws banning members of the royal family (whether elected or not) from being PM are more likely...

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#12 Post by Octavious » Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:16 am

Nothing aside from political and practical reality, you mean?

It's a pointless discussion, really. To be PM you need to be someone who can command the support of the people, and anyone other than someone utterly loathsome can be parachuted into a safe seat via a by-election without difficulty. Politics likes to follow the path of least resistance, and you're asking about whether water can be encouraged to flow uphill.

Step one. The right honourable Nevera Thort MP, elected representative of Blue-upon-Blue North, is asked to step down to spend more time with their family with the promise of a seat in the House of Lords if they do.

Step two. Ricky Jervais wins the Blue-upon-Blue by-election and takes his seat in Parliament

Step three. Ricky is appointed Prime Minister

Nice and easy. Job's a goodun.

Is it possible to do it another way? Probably. Will anyone ever do it? No
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#13 Post by orathaic » Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:13 pm

It means exactly what i thought. The law doesn't specify, but common practice has it that the PM is a member of the House of Commons (or previously the House of Lords, no longer the done thing).
The Monarch appoints as Prime Minister the person who is best able to ‘command a majority in the House of Commons’, this is will usually be the Leader of the largest political party in the House of Commons.
But given that there isn't a written constitution to prevent it, there would have been nothing to stop Nigel Farage from becoming PM (if his Brexit Party had won a majority in an election) while he was infact an elected MEP.

So long as he was the leader of the party with majority support in Parliament.

Likewise, for a caretaker PM, it is possible to have a non-party technocrat (as i believe they did in Italy insome part of the last decade or two) as a neutral alternative to a hung Parliament where noone can agree who should lead.

I think it amounts to selecting a senior civil servant to run the country until a new election or party leadership contest can be arranged - in this case, assuming Tories wanted Boris Johnson out, but didn't agree who should he the caretaker PM until Autumn.

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#14 Post by Octavious » Sat Jul 09, 2022 8:14 pm

No idea if it's technically possible or not. Absolutely certain it will never happen
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#15 Post by Octavious » Sat Jul 09, 2022 8:22 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:13 pm
But given that there isn't a written constitution to prevent it, there would have been nothing to stop Nigel Farage from becoming PM (if his Brexit Party had won a majority in an election) while he was infact an elected MEP.
If the Brexit Party had enough support to win a majority in an election, one of those MPs would have been Farage. In an infinite multiverse there is no reality in which the Brexit Party wins a majority of MPs and Farage isn't one of them. There are times, I'm sure, when I say something that demonstrates my ignorance of an area of European or American politics. You have done very much the same here with British politics.
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#16 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jul 09, 2022 8:51 pm

@Orathaic: I'm afraid Octavious is quite right. You are meandering into backwaters of theoretical irrelevance. It is *technically* accurate to observe that there is no legal, constitutional rule which says that the Prime Minster must be a sitting member of the House of Commons. However this observation is of no practical relevance since it is a matter of very well-established convention that, in fact, the Prime Minister always will be a sitting member of the House of Commons.

The idea of the Monarch selecting a Civil Servant, a Member of the House of Lords, one of the occupants of the Gorilla Enclosure at London Zoo, or one of the Prince of Wales's prize-winning geraniums to act as Prime Minister is something that simply has no practical likelihood of occurring, so the constitutional legality of it is unimportant.

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#17 Post by orathaic » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:49 pm

The idea of the Monarch selecting a Civil Servant...
Not the Monarch, the House of Commons would have to select. Usually by being the leader of the largest party. Which you are not allowed to do while being a civil servant.

But like i said, it happened in Italy (when hit by the financial crisis):
On 16 November 2011, Monti was sworn in as Prime Minister of Italy, after unveiling a technocratic cabinet composed entirely of unelected professionals.
My question is just, is this legally possible in the UK. (Even if a hung Parliament is less likely, and the current crisis is not on the same level - or more to the point the political issues so toxic that nobody wanted their party to take responciblity for the austerity measures which were inevitable).

And i think the answer is a simple yes. Anyone the House of Commons rallies behind can be PM.

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#18 Post by Octavious » Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:37 am

A simple yes? That's what you've taken from all this?

Wow. It is somehow comforting to know that, even after all these years, the way your mind works can still surprise me :razz:
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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#19 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:46 am

orathaic wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:49 pm
The idea of the Monarch selecting a Civil Servant...
Not the Monarch, the House of Commons would have to select.
Well since you were determined to drift off into pointless technicalities, no. Technically, the Monarch appoints the Prime Minister.

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Re: The Last Days Of Boris Johnson

#20 Post by worcej » Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:48 pm

This thread has been a fantastic read to understanding the weird political landscape of your parliament lol
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