When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

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brainbomb
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When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#1 Post by brainbomb » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:33 am

At what point in the developmental process does an embryo cease to be just a mass of cells, and in your mind is an inevitability that life will happen?

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#2 Post by brainbomb » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:34 am

People tend to frame questions about embryonic development by speaking about control, and bodies; rather than just looking at inevitability. What happens next, and is there just a head in the sand element to this that people prefer to turn into a whataboutism?

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#3 Post by Octavious » Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:13 am

You seem to be asking a lot of different questions as if they are the same thing. I will answer them the best I can.
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:33 am
and in your mind is an inevitability that life will happen?
I'll start with the easiest first. Life is happening from day one. I'm not sure where you can point to their not being life throughout the process. If you are referring instead to the inevitably of the new life becoming separate from the mother in the form of a new born baby, there is no such moment other than the instant it happens.
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:33 am
When does an embryo have intrinsic value
From the moment it is formed. I can't for the life of me see how you can argue against that. This value increases significantly as it develops, obviously, but there is value there from the start.
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:33 am
At what point in the developmental process does an embryo cease to be just a mass of cells, and in your mind is an inevitability that life will happen?
The trouble with this question taken as a whole, as discussed previously, is that the embryo is never "just a mass of cells", and there is no inevitability. The question makes assumptions about the person being asked that simply don't stand up to scrutiny.

How I would frame the question in order to get the answer I think that you're seeking would be more along the lines of "when does the unborn child's development reach a level in which its right to life trumps the mother's right to choose?"

Clearly an unborn child a day before its birthday is as close to a baby as makes no difference. Equally clearly an embryo in its very early stages is a long way from this, and whilst an abortion at this stage is a sad thing it feels very much the lesser evil when compared to a mother being trapped in a situation she neither desires nor can cope with.

The matter of where the line is drawn is one for society to decide aided, but not dictated to, by the knowledge of medical science. Personally I lean towards the time when the unborn child becomes viable outside the womb as the cut off point for when abortions that aren't medical emergencies can take place, with obviously the earlier the better if they have to happen.

The idea that it should be the woman's absolute right to choose regardless of the development stage of the unborn child is an utter nonsense. As in all matters of difficult questions of right and wrong it must be a consensus of society that holds sway. Why freedom of choice extremists insist on arguing that abortion is somehow different from other contentious issues of morality I have never understood.
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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#4 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:55 am

Octavious wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:13 am
The matter of where the line is drawn is one for society to decide aided, but not dictated to, by the knowledge of medical science. Personally I lean towards the time when the unborn child becomes viable outside the womb as the cut off point for when abortions that aren't medical emergencies can take place, with obviously the earlier the better if they have to happen.
And how do you define "viable" in this context?

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#5 Post by orathaic » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:38 pm

From the moment it is formed. I can't for the life of me see how you can argue against that. This value increases significantly as it develops, obviously, but there is value there from the start.
The counter point is, what is the intrinsic value of unfertilised eggs and sperm.

But obviously given what you said about viability you will answer that eggs and sperm have intrinsic value in that they can be used to make embryos (supply however greatly outstrips demand).

The question of viability is fairly simple. Current medical technologies means ~21-24 a fetus becomes viable (though expensive.... And in the US fetuses can't sign up for health insurance before they are born).

The point about bodily autonomy is, you can choose to remove this from your body at any point. However after viability the method of removal becomes more riskey to the pregnant person and more likely to result in a living baby spending 6 week in neonatal care (presumably saddled with tens of thousands in medical debt).

All abortions which happen after this point are tradegies. Wanted babies who die due to medical complications or are not viable.

Again, i seem to largely agrees with Oct on most of this.
The matter of where the line is drawn is one for society to decide aided, but not dictated to, by the knowledge of medical science.
Here i might disagree. A society could (for example) agree that all abortions up to viability are (free), safe and legal. And then let medical science decide where that point of viability is (as it likely changes).

Further there is research on artificial wombs to grow lab babies without needing a human host.

As a society we should discuss what the limits of research (if any) on this type of technology should be.

For the record, pregnancy altered the body permanently and even in the best case has a negative impact. Nobody should be forced to remain pregnant against their will.

The evolutionary consequences of Humans relying entirely on external gestation should be considered.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#6 Post by Fluminator » Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:07 pm

I think in an abstract philosophical sense, it's pretty clear the embryo at conception is a distinct entity from the mother with its own DNA.

Practically though, do we want to be bringing babies into this world if they can't be cared for? If babies can't think or feel, are they really killed?

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#7 Post by brainbomb » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:45 pm

These are all fantastic statements by all of
you.

Do you feel that there is such a thing as a frivolous or selfish abortion?

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#8 Post by brainbomb » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:48 pm

and of course any country seeking to fully ban abortion without exception need only look at the terrifying countries on that small list. You would find that even places with barely any form of womens rights whatsoever still allow abortions under exception.
Anyone who thinks that the United States will become a more frightening place to be a woman than Iraq or Afghanistan is just trying to milk the sensationalism that comes from what happened.
America would never descend into a draconian state like madagascar for example where 30% of the population is having illegal abortions in secret caverns.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#9 Post by worcej » Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:26 am

brainbomb wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:45 pm
These are all fantastic statements by all of
you.

Do you feel that there is such a thing as a frivolous or selfish abortion?
I may be in the minority with this, but yes I do think there are selfish abortions.

There was a girl in my highschool that I was friends with who was pretty sexually active and enjoyed being the object of attention. She ultimately did get pregnant at the age of 17 and got an abortion ASAP (if memory serves me correctly, like 6 to 8 weeks into term) one she knew. To me, this was a selfish abortion because she wasn't ready to be a parent yet and was enjoying a lifestyle that was inherently risky, even was cognizant of the risks, and did not protect herself appropriately.

Now, was she wrong to get an abortion here? No, in my eyes she was fine to do so. But it was clearly selfish.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#10 Post by Octavious » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:04 am

I'd say pretty much all abortions are inherently selfish as ultimately they are about the woman prioritising herself over the potential new life. I'm not sure how you could conceive of a selfless act of abortion... perhaps to spare what would have been a terminally ill child a life of suffering? But regardless, that's not to say that prioritising yourself is always the wrong choice.
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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#11 Post by orathaic » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am

And i see no reason to think that a person who is being selfish would be a suitable parent. Most research suggests that parents who we're not ready to parent are bad at it.

There is a very selfless example though, about 30% (can't recall the exact figure) are for people who already have children. They know how much time and energy raising a child takes, and choose to prioritise their current children. That would not be selfish in my mind. Likewise there are folks with disabilities who either don't want to pass on genetic conditions or don't think it is fair to the potential child to be raised by them.

But any person who doesn't think they would make a good parent, for any reason, selfish or not, should not be forced to go through the health and permanent damage to the body which every pregnancy risks.
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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#12 Post by orathaic » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:12 pm

I think the risks of pregnancy need to be considered. And i think a fair analogy is compared to running a marathon.

Some people do die while running a marathon - so i think this is a fair enough comparison - but imagine instead that you spend months training to run a marathon, and then you get an injury and decide it isn't safe to actually run the race.

Pregnancy can be like that, but you don't get a choice to not give birth at the end when you know what all the risks will be.

Saying that nobody should be forced to run a marathon is a no brainer. Their body, their choice. The risk may be small, but it is still there.

I don't know of this encompassed the whole story, as the risk of death is one thing, but the guarantee of damaging changes to your body - some of which may be permanent - is rarely discussed (unless you or your partner are currently pregnant). Among the more common of which are incontinence.

Even the easiest of pregnancies and births come with these complications (and others). So i think the marathon+training comparison is apt. People run marathons all the time. That doesn't mean there are no risk, or that anyone should be forced to run a marathon, or told God has ordained them to run a marathon.. or that this is the appropriate punishment for their private behaviour.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#13 Post by Octavious » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:35 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
And i see no reason to think that a person who is being selfish would be a suitable parent.
Other than the fact that literally every human is selfish at some point in their lives? If you set the bar for parenthood at such a level then humanity will be extinct in a few hundred yards.
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
There is a very selfless example though, about 30% (can't recall the exact figure) are for people who already have children. They know how much time and energy raising a child takes, and choose to prioritise their current children
This is not remotely a selfless example. Such people can easily arrange long term contraception. For a couple to instead adopt a deliberate policy of abortion as a preferred alternative is at best painfully stupid or lazy, and at worst an utter disregard of the health of the mother. Selfless?? Not a bit.
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
But any person who doesn't think they would make a good parent, for any reason, selfish or not, should not be forced to go through the health and permanent damage to the body which every pregnancy risks
Agreed, unless they have left it too late and the unborn child has developed considerably. In which circumstance the rights of the unborn child to life trump the rights of the woman to have her mistakes corrected for her.
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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#14 Post by brainbomb » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:45 pm

You keep repeating that no one has a right to force a person to carry a pregnancy to term. And I feel like this line is both morally and legally bogus. Name for me any other potential life ending decision a person could make where they are allowed this one size fits all way out of being responsible.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#15 Post by orathaic » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:48 pm

brainbomb wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:45 pm
You keep repeating that no one has a right to force a person to carry a pregnancy to term. And I feel like this line is both morally and legally bogus. Name for me any other potential life ending decision a person could make where they are allowed this one size fits all way out of being responsible.
Likewise, nobody has a right to force you to donate an orgán or even some blood to prevent someone else from dying.

Not giving your brother a life saving kidney donation could be exactly the same 'life ending' decision - except in that case, you would be talking about an adult human, capable of suffering, having friends and family of their own who depend on them and legally protected rights.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#16 Post by orathaic » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:35 pm
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
And i see no reason to think that a person who is being selfish would be a suitable parent.
Other than the fact that literally every human is selfish at some point in their lives? If you set the bar for parenthood at such a level then humanity will be extinct in a few hundred yards.
Assuming you mean years. Being selfish at some point in your life, and being a self 20 something who has never taken on any responciblity in their life are different things.

You can be a selfish child, and still become a reasonable 30 year old with different life experience. So this seems like a strawman, or misunderstanding of my position.
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
There is a very selfless example though, about 30% (can't recall the exact figure) are for people who already have children. They know how much time and energy raising a child takes, and choose to prioritise their current children
This is not remotely a selfless example. Such people can easily arrange long term contraception. For a couple to instead adopt a deliberate policy of abortion as a preferred alternative is at best painfully stupid or lazy, and at worst an utter disregard of the health of the mother. Selfless?? Not a bit.
Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical. Even the least difficult medical abortions (a number of pills followed by potentially painful cramping and bleeding) is less convienant than most of the alternatives.

The fantasy that anyone is using abortion in place of contraception is mostly fabricated by pro-birthers who want to shame all people who have sex while not wanting to have a child every time.
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:44 am
But any person who doesn't think they would make a good parent, for any reason, selfish or not, should not be forced to go through the health and permanent damage to the body which every pregnancy risks
Agreed, unless they have left it too late and the unborn child has developed considerably. In which circumstance the rights of the unborn child to life trump the rights of the woman to have her mistakes corrected for her.
Yes, you know we agree on this point. After viability the procedure to stop someone being pregnant is a C-section/induced birthing, not an abortion. The still retain their bodily autonomy.

Unfortunately the delays are often caused by pro-birthers laws, forcing pregnant people to travel, miss work, incur extra expenses, and generally shame the choices made (where they can't legally enforce their will).

Most abortions occur in the first 12 weeks.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#17 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:22 am

brainbomb wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:48 pm
and of course any country seeking to fully ban abortion without exception need only look at the terrifying countries on that small list. You would find that even places with barely any form of womens rights whatsoever still allow abortions under exception.
Anyone who thinks that the United States will become a more frightening place to be a woman than Iraq or Afghanistan is just trying to milk the sensationalism that comes from what happened.
America would never descend into a draconian state like madagascar for example where 30% of the population is having illegal abortions in secret caverns.
Hey, in America it's the people in secret caverns you've got to worry about. I hear they've got large stocks of automatic weapons, baseball caps, and non-perishable foodstuffs.

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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#18 Post by Octavious » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:35 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
Assuming you mean years. Being selfish at some point in your life, and being a self 20 something who has never taken on any responciblity in their life are different things.

You can be a selfish child, and still become a reasonable 30 year old with different life experience. So this seems like a strawman, or misunderstanding of my position.
I never mentioned children, nor intended to use children as an example. No, my point is that pretty much all reasonable 30, 40, 20, 60 etc year olds will act selfishly at times. It is part of being human. Sometimes it is instinctive, like choosing the item of food with the longest shelf life at the supermarket even though you intend to eat it that night. Sometimes it is calculated, like a homeowner who has agreed a price with a seller scraping that agreement because a new higher offer has made a late appearance. But the vast majority of people, to a greater or lesser degree, will take selfish decisions that knowingly benefit themselves at the expense of others. Good people try not to, but very few succeed all the time.
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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#19 Post by Octavious » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical
But that is exactly what you just did :?
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Re: When does an Embryo have intrinsic value to you?

#20 Post by orathaic » Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:57 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:36 pm
orathaic wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm
Proposing the existence of anyone who would use abortion as a deliberate alternative to contraception is pretty fantastical
But that is exactly what you just did :?
What did i say?

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