War, what is it good for?

[Octavious]

But they believe in different Gods than the one you believe in.

Brahman is not especially different to God. I see no reason to believe that Brahman is anything other than God speaking with a voice that resonates better with that population. God doesn't speak with one voice. Someone reading the Bible in London today will take from it a very different message to someone reading it in London 1000 years ago. The message is tailored to the man. When God speaks to you it is highly unlikely to be the same experience as when he speaks to me

I would love if the theists could respond to one another on this one lol.

I don't think Fritz is quite so loose with the Bible.

If this is what religion is, then Jamie's atheism must also be the tailored message he received from God, equal in value to believers' contention that there is a God.

I suspect that you'd be disappointed. The Bible contains a great truth and the word of God. There is no contradiction. But it does seem fairly clear to me that if the Bible was God's only method of communication there'd be a hell of a lot more of them and they'd be all over the world.

As it happens I very much suspect that God does indeed speak to Jamie, regardless of whether or not Jamie recognises it as such. Although I dare say a more open relationship would be a beneficial to Jamie, and better enable him to fight off those metaphorical demons, but God does not impose

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Brahman is not especially different to God. I see no reason to believe that Brahman is anything other than God speaking with a voice that resonates better with that population. God doesn't speak with one voice. Someone reading the Bible in London today will take from it a very different message to someone reading it in London 1000 years ago. The message is tailored to the man. When God speaks to you it is highly unlikely to be the same experience as when he speaks to me

I would love if the theists could respond to one another on this one lol.

I don't think Fritz is quite so loose with the Bible.

If this is what religion is, then Jamie's atheism must also be the tailored message he received from God, equal in value to believers' contention that there is a God.

I suspect that you'd be disappointed. The Bible contains a great truth and the word of God. There is no contradiction. But it does seem fairly clear to me that if the Bible was God's only method of communication there'd be a hell of a lot more of them and they'd be all over the world.

As it happens I very much suspect that God does indeed speak to Jamie, regardless of whether or not Jamie recognises it as such. Although I dare say a more open relationship would be a beneficial to Jamie, and better enable him to fight off those metaphorical demons, but God does not impose

A lot of Christians don't have the extremely open views you have towards God. You sound as though you'd fit in well with my local Unitarian church, and probably quite poorly with the local Pentecostals.

If your view is that God already speaks to Jamie, then who are you to say how best Jamie should manage that relationship with It?

So either:

i.) God exists, talks to Jamie, but then convinces Jamie he doesn't exist

ii.) God exists, but doesn't talk to Jamie, hence why Jamie doesn't believe he exists

iii.) God doesn't exist and Jamie's assumption is true

There are no good reasons to preference any one of these answers over another vis-a-vis the existence of *some* God-like presence. Its not even conceptually possible to bring evidence to bear here, unless God comes back in some convincing way.

[Octavious]

Lol! By speaking to Jamie I don't mean he has some kind of heavenly Zoom meeting followed by shining a Men in Black device in his eyes to make him forget

[Jamiet99uk]

Lol! By speaking to Jamie I don't mean he has some kind of heavenly Zoom meeting followed by shining a Men in Black device in his eyes to make him forget

God visits me every Friday evening and we have a good chat. However, moments after he leaves, the ghost of Joan Crawford appears and wipes my memory. I have no idea why this occurs.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Lol! By speaking to Jamie I don't mean he has some kind of heavenly Zoom meeting followed by shining a Men in Black device in his eyes to make him forget

I supposed you meant it in the nebulous, unverifiable way of God's presence and message being embedded in our very minds, in every tree leaf, cat eyeball, and TV show, etc., although if you believe some folks' accounts God does occasionally communicate more directly (though I'm a skeptic on this point, or at least a little chapped that, if this is true, he hasn't bothered to drop me a line).

[Octavious]

Lol! By speaking to Jamie I don't mean he has some kind of heavenly Zoom meeting followed by shining a Men in Black device in his eyes to make him forget

I supposed you meant it in the nebulous, unverifiable way of God's presence and message being embedded in our very minds, in every tree leaf, cat eyeball, and TV show, etc., although if you believe some folks' accounts God does occasionally communicate more directly (though I'm a skeptic on this point, or at least a little chapped that, if this is true, he hasn't bothered to drop me a line).

Humans perceive things in different ways. Some of us have an internal monologue, some don't. Some can see images in their mind's eye, some can't. When I remember a story from a book I remember it much like a film playing out in my mind. I'd always assumed everyone else did the same, but I now know otherwise. Most see in three primary colours, some see fewer or no colours, and a few can see four primary colours. Who is it for me to say how others may or may not perceive God? Maybe some can indeed have something that resembles a chat.

Of course it could simply be that God communicates less with those who do not need it, or whose life may be made worse because of it. I have always had the impression that you're one of those people who is sailing through life on an even keel, so God may simply see no need to nudge you in any other direction

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Lol! By speaking to Jamie I don't mean he has some kind of heavenly Zoom meeting followed by shining a Men in Black device in his eyes to make him forget

I supposed you meant it in the nebulous, unverifiable way of God's presence and message being embedded in our very minds, in every tree leaf, cat eyeball, and TV show, etc., although if you believe some folks' accounts God does occasionally communicate more directly (though I'm a skeptic on this point, or at least a little chapped that, if this is true, he hasn't bothered to drop me a line).

Humans perceive things in different ways. Some of us have an internal monologue, some don't. Some can see images in their mind's eye, some can't. When I remember a story from a book I remember it much like a film playing out in my mind. I'd always assumed everyone else did the same, but I now know otherwise. Most see in three primary colours, some see fewer or no colours, and a few can see four primary colours. Who is it for me to say how others may or may not perceive God? Maybe some can indeed have something that resembles a chat.

Of course it could simply be that God communicates less with those who do not need it, or whose life may be made worse because of it. I have always had the impression that you're one of those people who is sailing through life on an even keel, so God may simply see no need to nudge you in any other direction

It's true, if I can commit this much time to forum chats on unresolvable issues then things must be going pretty well in my life. I'm fine if God's email to me stays in the draft folder, though he can't be mad when that makes it a little easier to be agnostic about his existence.

I'm curious for whom would it be worse to know that God existed?

[CaptainFritz28]

I would love if the theists could respond to one another on this one lol.

I don't think Fritz is quite so loose with the Bible.

If this is what religion is, then Jamie's atheism must also be the tailored message he received from God, equal in value to believers' contention that there is a God.

I suspect that you'd be disappointed. The Bible contains a great truth and the word of God. There is no contradiction. But it does seem fairly clear to me that if the Bible was God's only method of communication there'd be a hell of a lot more of them and they'd be all over the world.

As it happens I very much suspect that God does indeed speak to Jamie, regardless of whether or not Jamie recognises it as such. Although I dare say a more open relationship would be a beneficial to Jamie, and better enable him to fight off those metaphorical demons, but God does not impose

A lot of Christians don't have the extremely open views you have towards God. You sound as though you'd fit in well with my local Unitarian church, and probably quite poorly with the local Pentecostals.

If your view is that God already speaks to Jamie, then who are you to say how best Jamie should manage that relationship with It?

So either:

i.) God exists, talks to Jamie, but then convinces Jamie he doesn't exist

ii.) God exists, but doesn't talk to Jamie, hence why Jamie doesn't believe he exists

iii.) God doesn't exist and Jamie's assumption is true

There are no good reasons to preference any one of these answers over another vis-a-vis the existence of *some* God-like presence. Its not even conceptually possible to bring evidence to bear here, unless God comes back in some convincing way.

And what of:

iv.) God speaks to Jamie and Jamie refuses to believe what God says?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I suspect that you'd be disappointed. The Bible contains a great truth and the word of God. There is no contradiction. But it does seem fairly clear to me that if the Bible was God's only method of communication there'd be a hell of a lot more of them and they'd be all over the world.

As it happens I very much suspect that God does indeed speak to Jamie, regardless of whether or not Jamie recognises it as such. Although I dare say a more open relationship would be a beneficial to Jamie, and better enable him to fight off those metaphorical demons, but God does not impose

A lot of Christians don't have the extremely open views you have towards God. You sound as though you'd fit in well with my local Unitarian church, and probably quite poorly with the local Pentecostals.

If your view is that God already speaks to Jamie, then who are you to say how best Jamie should manage that relationship with It?

So either:

i.) God exists, talks to Jamie, but then convinces Jamie he doesn't exist

ii.) God exists, but doesn't talk to Jamie, hence why Jamie doesn't believe he exists

iii.) God doesn't exist and Jamie's assumption is true

There are no good reasons to preference any one of these answers over another vis-a-vis the existence of *some* God-like presence. Its not even conceptually possible to bring evidence to bear here, unless God comes back in some convincing way.

And what of:

iv.) God speaks to Jamie and Jamie refuses to believe what God says?

There's a lot of looseness in this thread about what God's power actually is.

Maybe God gave Jamie free will and is profoundly committed to his right to non-belief. But if there is a God and it talked to Jamie with the intention of convincing him of his existence, I cannot imagine that God would fail in this task.

[CaptainFritz28]

A lot of Christians don't have the extremely open views you have towards God. You sound as though you'd fit in well with my local Unitarian church, and probably quite poorly with the local Pentecostals.

If your view is that God already speaks to Jamie, then who are you to say how best Jamie should manage that relationship with It?

So either:

i.) God exists, talks to Jamie, but then convinces Jamie he doesn't exist

ii.) God exists, but doesn't talk to Jamie, hence why Jamie doesn't believe he exists

iii.) God doesn't exist and Jamie's assumption is true

There are no good reasons to preference any one of these answers over another vis-a-vis the existence of *some* God-like presence. Its not even conceptually possible to bring evidence to bear here, unless God comes back in some convincing way.

And what of:

iv.) God speaks to Jamie and Jamie refuses to believe what God says?

There's a lot of looseness in this thread about what God's power actually is.

Maybe God gave Jamie free will and is profoundly committed to his right to non-belief. But if there is a God and it talked to Jamie with the intention of convincing him of his existence, I cannot imagine that God would fail in this task.

I thought I had been fairly clear about this, but obviously not, for which I apologize.

God gives us free will. Every choice we make is our own. Just because God speaks to you does not mean you will listen. God commanded Adam directly to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and yet he disobeyed.

God could force us to agree with everything He says, but He does not, because He gave us free will.

[CaptainFritz28]

I'm curious for whom would it be worse to know that God existed?

I am curious to see Oct's answer to this, because either I didn't understand what he said, or he claimed that it is better for some people to not be aware or God's existence, which I disagree with.

[Octavious]

though he can't be mad when that makes it a little easier to be agnostic about his existence.

You do have some odd notions about God. Not quite as odd as Jamie, who is fixated on some cartoon version of the old testament God, but odd nonetheless. What makes the notion of God getting mad at agnostics even enter your mind? It's such a bizarre concept.

As for whom it would be worse to know that God exists, I imagine that there are countless examples and much of it comes down to timing. To give a rather frivolous illustration, I don't think there's a great deal of value in experiencing a devine revelation whilst halfway through a final year exam

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

though he can't be mad when that makes it a little easier to be agnostic about his existence.

You do have some odd notions about God. Not quite as odd as Jamie, who is fixated on some cartoon version of the old testament God, but odd nonetheless. What makes the notion of God getting mad at agnostics even enter your mind? It's such a bizarre concept.

As for whom it would be worse to know that God exists, I imagine that there are countless examples and much of it comes down to timing. To give a rather frivolous illustration, I don't think there's a great deal of value in experiencing a devine revelation whilst halfway through a final year exam

I don't have any notions about God, but I'm skeptical about everyone else's.

There are certainly a lot of religious folks who believe that their God is THE God and that believing in the right God, in the right way, is extremely important for one's salvation.

Several of the 10 Commandments are about God being a jealous God.

Christians have fought wars amongst themselves regarding whether God is one thing or three things.

I agree with you that these things seem bizarre. If I could somehow *know* there was a God, without knowing anything more about It, then I wouldn't presume It to be jealous or even interested in worship.

But I wouldn't call this particular view of God (i.e., that there is one real God and that he cares a lot what humans think) "bizarre" in the sense that it's a real part of a lot of people's faith. Among Christians one might find themselves in the minority if they don't hold at least some of these "bizarre" views.

[Octavious]

One of the greatest things about the Bible is that it contradicts itself quite blatantly. The gospels in particular have quite differing accounts of the same event. This is God shouting from the rooftops that we shouldn't take it word for word. Consider the Bible as a map for your spirituality. As every cartographer knows, all maps are lies, but they are useful lies that carry a greater truth and serve a purpose. The Bible is perhaps the greatest of maps.

Your God given brain is your compass. If you read a page of your Bible and your brain tells you "this is clearly a bit bollocks", then it could well be that it is. You already have a good grasp of the core of the commandments. Don't kill, don't steal, try to avoid jealousy, and treat your mum and dad decently. You don't need that bit, so it doesn't really speak to you any more. Skip on to the good bits like the Song of Solomon and the girl with massive tits. A thousand years ago the jealous God stuff may well have resonated strongly with people needing the strength to resist the Vikings and their pagan gods demanding human sacrifice. Or maybe the jealous God stuff is for people reading the Bible in 200 years time. It is there with purpose, but that purpose may not have anything to do with you. Trust your brain.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

One of the greatest things about the Bible is that it contradicts itself quite blatantly. The gospels in particular have quite differing accounts of the same event. This is God shouting from the rooftops that we shouldn't take it word for word. Consider the Bible as a map for your spirituality. As every cartographer knows, all maps are lies, but they are useful lies that carry a greater truth and serve a purpose. The Bible is perhaps the greatest of maps.

Your God given brain is your compass. If you read a page of your Bible and your brain tells you "this is clearly a bit bollocks", then it could well be that it is. You already have a good grasp of the core of the commandments. Don't kill, don't steal, try to avoid jealousy, and treat your mum and dad decently. You don't need that bit, so it doesn't really speak to you any more. Skip on to the good bits like the Song of Solomon and the girl with massive tits. A thousand years ago the jealous God stuff may well have resonated strongly with people needing the strength to resist the Vikings and their pagan gods demanding human sacrifice. Or maybe the jealous God stuff is for people reading the Bible in 200 years time. It is there with purpose, but that purpose may not have anything to do with you. Trust your brain.

This version of Christianity sounds great. It's certainly not mainstream among the Christians I've known. I wonder how Fritz feels about it lol.

[Octavious]

It is. It fits into the observable universe without friction and provides guidance where guidance is needed. It very much works for me. It feels right.

Fritz has his own conversation with God that clearly suits him very well. There's nothing that I have said that is remotely critical of the way Fritz chooses to go about things. Christianity is very catholic, in the true sense of the word

[Octavious]

Ahh... It appears we're attacking Yemen

That took longer than I anticipated

[Jamiet99uk]

Fritz has his own conversation with God that clearly suits him very well. There's nothing that I have said that is remotely critical of the way Fritz chooses to go about things. Christianity is very catholic, in the true sense of the word

Part of the problem we've been having, however, is that Fritz very clearly does not see it that way. It appears his view is that there is a very specific interpretation of God and the Bible that is exactly right, and everyone else is wrong.

[Jamiet99uk]

Ahh... It appears we're attacking Yemen

That took longer than I anticipated

Oh wow a conversation which actually has to do with the original purpose of the thread, great.

The situation in Yemen is a tragedy in which Saudi Arabia and Iran, who are effectively carrying out a proxy war on Yemen's territory, deserve a great deal of the blame.

Having said that, the behaviour of the Houthi militia in attacking international shipping was always likely to result in a response of this nature.

[Octavious]

Fritz has his own conversation with God that clearly suits him very well. There's nothing that I have said that is remotely critical of the way Fritz chooses to go about things. Christianity is very catholic, in the true sense of the word

Part of the problem we've been having, however, is that Fritz very clearly does not see it that way. It appears his view is that there is a very specific interpretation of God and the Bible that is exactly right, and everyone else is wrong.

And this is a problem for what reason?