War, what is it good for?

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flash2015
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#281 Post by flash2015 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:08 am

French_boi wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:29 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:12 pm
French_boi wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:57 am
The reason for that is because Russia had annexed Crimea already and Russian-backed insurgents controlled those parts of Ukraine lol.
I really don't think that's an argument in your direction.
So given your answers I am assuming you are suggesting that Russia should not be allowed to keep anything, including Crimea?
No - I'm just saying that your reasoning for using outdated elections as opposed to the more recent ones is incorrect. I have no position on if Ukraine should try to take back Crimea too (though given the recent attack on the bridge linking Crimea to Russia I assume they might).
This wasn't really the important part of my post. The important part was the question I asked which I don't believe you have answered:

"How badly does he need to be humiliated? Lose all the land gained since the start of the war? Does he need to lose Crimea too?"

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#282 Post by French_boi » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:05 am

Answer: lose all land gained since the start of the war.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#283 Post by Octavious » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:10 am

French_boi wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:05 am
Answer: lose all land gained since the start of the war.
Define "the start of the war". I imagine many Ukrainians will agree with you, but they may well be agreeing different things.

One massive headache for the West that isn't given nearly enough coverage is there are now an enormous number of Ukrainians who have been given a wide assortment of military weapons. Even if everything works out nicely there will be a a fair few bad eggs who will seek to profit by selling the weapons to criminals across Europe. If things go less well and there's a perception that Ukraine has been betrayed by the West (a deal sponsored by Europe in which Putin walks away with a lot of territory, say) then the bad eggs will be joined by the vengeful and Europe will have a massive problem on its hands.
I eat cookies to improve my snacking experience

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#284 Post by orathaic » Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:34 am

Octavious wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:10 am
French_boi wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:05 am
Answer: lose all land gained since the start of the war.
Define "the start of the war". I imagine many Ukrainians will agree with you, but they may well be agreeing different things.

One massive headache for the West that isn't given nearly enough coverage is there are now an enormous number of Ukrainians who have been given a wide assortment of military weapons. Even if everything works out nicely there will be a a fair few bad eggs who will seek to profit by selling the weapons to criminals across Europe. If things go less well and there's a perception that Ukraine has been betrayed by the West (a deal sponsored by Europe in which Putin walks away with a lot of territory, say) then the bad eggs will be joined by the vengeful and Europe will have a massive problem on its hands.
Two things, currently the largest source of weapons in Ukraine is the Russian army, bith abandoned equipment and Russians surrendering with their equipment (which the Ukrainian govt has agreed to pay for.... Sure it is probably about 1/10th of the value, but when you are in a multimillion dollar vechile, even 1/10th can be a big difference).

Most Ukrainians consider the start of the war to be 2014, when Russia first sent troops to Luhansk and Donetsk. They may not have been wearing Russian flag on their uniforms as a plausible deniability but there is no doubt that Russia decided to take this territory by force.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#285 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:40 pm

Someone who i agree with, former Finnish Prime Minister, current academic, talking about the mistakes he's made:

https://youtu.be/EQzrleKU9B0

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