War, what is it good for?

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Matticus13
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#141 Post by Matticus13 » Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:29 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:27 pm
An import interview with Zelensky by CNN:

"I'm ready for negotiations with him. I was ready for the last two years. And I think that without negotiations we cannot end this war," he told CNN's Fareed Zakaria.

"I think that we have to use any format, any chance in order to have a possibility of negotiating, possibility of talking to Putin. But if these attempts fail, that would mean that this is a third World War," he added.


What I take from this is that Zelensky is going to make a deal, and he's going to concede more than people expect. But his excuse, which he's getting in nice and early, is that he's doing it in order to prevent a third world war.

Thus the narrative becomes that Ukraine has sacrificed itself (or at least the eastern regions) in order to save the world. In other words, Ukraine believes it deserves the rest of the world expressing gratitude in the form of grants to rebuild what remains of Ukraine. Which, regardless of whether or not you believe that nonsense about world war 3, is probably fair enough.
"There are compromises for which we cannot be ready as an independent state," he told CNN host Fareed Zakaria, speaking through an interpreter. "Any compromises related to our territorial integrity and our sovereignty .... [the] Ukrainian people have spoken about it. They have not greeted Russian soldiers with a bunch of flowers; they have greeted them with bravery, and they have greeted them with weapons in their hands."

Doesn't sound like the Ukrainian government's position has moved on this point (at least publicly).

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#142 Post by Matticus13 » Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:24 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:10 am
Has Biden's approval gone up?
Yeah. Went from 39% to 46% according to the poll I read (maybe Gallup?).
Octavious wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:10 am
One from Pelosi who sounded like she'd downed a bottle of gin an hour before, one from Harris sounding like she was giving a briefing on the war to the under 5s, and a couple from Biden sounding very old, confusing Ukraine and Iran, and (somewhat bizarrely) making a quip about the Irish being stupid.
Democratic party leadership is as embarrassing as Republican leadership these days...

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#143 Post by Octavious » Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:37 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:29 am

"There are compromises for which we cannot be ready as an independent state," he told CNN host Fareed Zakaria, speaking through an interpreter. "Any compromises related to our territorial integrity and our sovereignty .... [the] Ukrainian people have spoken about it. They have not greeted Russian soldiers with a bunch of flowers; they have greeted them with bravery, and they have greeted them with weapons in their hands."

Doesn't sound like the Ukrainian government's position has moved on this point (at least publicly).
It's an interesting way of phrasing it, isn't it? He could have said, for example," I vow never to concede any Ukrainian territory whilst I have the privilege of leading this country" or some equally unambiguous statement. Instead he restricts his statement to saying little more than that the Ukrainian people won't be happy about compromises (a statement of the blatantly obvious), and he believes that he will have their support if he chooses to fight on. Which is the bare minimum, really. If he said that the Ukrainian people wanted peace at any cost his negotiating position is essentially non existent. He needs the prospect of a future full of Russian pain to look realistic in order to achieve any concessions from Putin.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#144 Post by Randomizer » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:06 pm

He's opposing the slow dissolving of his country first starting with Crimea and now the next two areas. Putin could then have claimed a victory and come back in a few years as his supporters take over another part that wants to be of Russia.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#145 Post by orathaic » Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:52 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:06 pm
He's opposing the slow dissolving of his country first starting with Crimea and now the next two areas. Putin could then have claimed a victory and come back in a few years as his supporters take over another part that wants to be of Russia.
From what I've read, nobody in the seperatist parts want to be part of Russia, the economy has been destroyed by corruption and abuse from Russian strong men and this has hurt everyone there.

But yeah, Putin surviving this war would mean figuring out what went wrong (logistics, army moral, military intelligence, air force?) And fixing it, so the next time they steam roll - assuming economic sanctions allow Russia to rebuild.

Just as Ukraine learned from what went wrong in 2014, and spent the intervening years making a military capable of defending the country.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#146 Post by Octavious » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:18 am

Speech of the Head of the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy 25.03.2022 (17:29)

In accordance with the decision of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief since February 24 this year. The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are conducting a special military operation.

Its main goal is to provide assistance to the people of the Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics, who have been subjected to genocide by the Kiev regime for 8 years.

It was impossible to achieve this goal by political means. Kiev has publicly refused to implement the Minsk agreements. The Ukrainian leadership twice in 2014 and 2015 tried to solve the so-called Donbass problem by military means, was defeated, but did not change its plans on resolving conflict by force in the East of the country. According to reliable data, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were completing the preparation of a military operation to take control of the territory of the people's republics.

In these conditions, it was possible to help the Donetsk and Lugansk republics only by providing them with military assistance. Which Russia has done.

There were two possible courses of action.

The first is to limit the territory to only the DPR and the LPR within the administrative borders of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which is enshrined in the constitutions of the republics. But then we would be faced with constant feeding by the Ukrainian authorities of the grouping involved in the so-called joint force operation.

Therefore, the second option was chosen, which provides for actions throughout the territory of Ukraine with the implementation of measures for its demilitarization and denazification.

The course of the operation confirmed the validity of this decision.

It is conducted by the General Staff in strict accordance with the approved plan.

The tasks are carried out taking into account minimizing losses among personnel and minimizing damage to civilians.

With the beginning of a special military operation, air supremacy was won during the first two days.

Offensive actions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are carried out in various directions.

As a result, Russian troops blocked Kiev, Kharkov, Chernigov, Sumy and Nikolaev. Kherson and most of the Zaporozhye region are under full control.

The public and individual experts are wondering what we are doing in the area of blocked Ukrainian cities.

These actions are carried out with the aim of causing such damage to military infrastructure, equipment, personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the results of which allow not only to shackle their forces and do not give them the opportunity to strengthen their grouping in the Donbass, but also will not allow them to do so until the Russian army completely liberates the territories of the DPR and LPR.

Initially, we did not plan to storm them in order to prevent destruction and minimize losses among personnel and civilians.

And although we do not rule out such a possibility, however, as individual groups complete their tasks, and they are being solved successfully, our forces and means will concentrate on the main thing – the complete liberation of Donbass.

Significant territories of the Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics have also been liberated. The people's militia has taken control of 276 settlements that were previously under the control of the Ukrainian army and the national battalions.

Demilitarization of Ukraine is achieved both by high-precision strikes on military infrastructure facilities, locations of formations and military units, airfields, control points, arsenals and warehouses of weapons and military equipment, and by the actions of troops to defeat opposing enemy grouppings.

Currently, the Ukrainian air forces and the air defence system have been almost completely destroyed. The naval forces of the country ceased to exist.

16 main military airfields were defeated, from which combat sorties of the AFU aviation were carried out. 39 storage bases and arsenals were destroyed, which contained up to 70% of all stocks of military equipment, materiel and fuel, as well as more than 1 million 54 thousand tons of ammunition.

All 24 formations of the Land Forces that existed before the start of the operation suffered significant losses. Ukraine has no organized reserves left.

Losses are replenished at the expense of mobilized persons and personnel of the territorial defence forces who do not have the necessary training, which increases the risk of large losses.

At the time of the start of the special military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine, together with the National Guard, numbered 260 thousand 200 servicemen. During the month of hostilities, their losses amounted to about 30 thousand people, including more than 14 thousand - irretrievable and about 16 thousand - sanitary.

Of the 2,416 tanks and other armored fighting vehicles that were in combat on February 24, 1,587 units were destroyed; 636 units out of 1,509 field artillery guns and mortars; 163 out of 535 MLRS; 112 out of 152 aircraft, 75 out of 149 helicopters; 36 Bayraktar TB2 UAVs - 35;

180 out of 148 S-300 and Buk M1 air defence systems; 300 out of 117 radars for various purposes.

The AFU continue to use high-powered weapons indiscriminately against towns in Donbass. An example of this is the strikes by the Tochka-U missile system on the civilian population of Donetsk and Makeyevka.

In this regard, they are the primary targets.

As of today, 7 Tochka-U launchers have been destroyed, and 85% of missiles are in arsenals and in the air. This significantly limited Ukraine's capabilities for their combat use.

Since the beginning of hostilities, the Western countries have supplied the Kiev regime with 109 field artillery guns, 3,800 anti-tank weapons, including Javelin, Milan, Konkurs, NLAW ATGM, M-72, Panzerfaust-3, 897 Stinger and Igla MANPADS.

We consider it a vast mistake for Western countries to supply weapons to Kiev. This delays the conflict, increases the number of victims and will not be able to influence the outcome of the operation.

The real purpose of such supplies is not to support Ukraine, but to drag it into a long-term military conflict "to the last Ukrainian."

We are closely monitoring the statements of the military and political leadership of individual countries about their intention to supply aircraft and air defence systems to Ukraine. In case of implementation– we will not leave it without attention.

We also hear assurances from NATO leaders about non-interference in the conflict. At the same time, some member states of the North Atlantic Alliance propose to close the airspace over Ukraine. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will immediately respond accordingly to such attempts.

In order to prevent the restoration of weapons and military equipment of the AFU that have received combat damage, the Russian Armed Forces are disabling repair enterprises, arsenals, storage bases, logistics warehouses with high-precision weapons.

At the moment, 30 key enterprises of the military-industrial complex have been hit by cruise missiles X-101, Kalibr, Iskander, and the Kinzhal aviation complex, which carried out repairs of 68% of weapons and equipment disabled during combat operations.

Russian modern weaponry has proven to be highly accurate, reliable and capable of operational use.

I would like to emphasize that the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation do not strike at civilian infrastructure facilities, including the destruction of bridges across rivers.

127 bridges were destroyed in the area of military operations. All of them were blown up by Ukrainian nationalists in order to deter the advance of our troops.

Another example of recklessness is the mining of approaches to the ports of Odessa, Ochakov, Chernomorsk and Yuzhny, where over 400 anchor mines of obsolete types are installed.

At least 10 mines have broken anchor and are drifting in the western part of the Black Sea, which poses a real threat to warships and civilian vessels.

The rampant crime, looting and marauding and civilian deaths have been caused by the Ukrainian regime's massive uncontrolled distribution of tens of thousands of small arms to the civilian population, including to criminals released from prisons. The situation will only get worse in the future.

The course of hostilities, the testimonies of civilians who left the blockaded settlements and captured Ukrainian servicemen show that today the AFU's ability to resist is based on fear of reprisals by neo-Nazis. Their representatives are embedded in all military units.

The mainstay of the Kiev regime are nationalist formations such as Azov, Aidar, Right Sector and others recognized in Russia as terrorist organizations. In Mariupol alone, they include more than 7 thousand militants who are fighting under the guise of civilians, using them as a "human shield".

The militants of the Azov battalion drive women and children out of the basements, threatening them with weapons, and send them towards the advancing units of the DPR in order to hinder the advance of the people's militia. This has become a common practice for them.

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, on the contrary, seek to avoid unnecessary losses. Before the start of the offensive, the AFU units are invited to leave the combat area and move along with equipment and weapons to the point of permanent deployment. Not to resist when the offensive begins and those who lay down their arms are guaranteed safety.

Civilians caught in a war zone are always advised to stay in their homes.

Humanitarian corridors are being organized in all cities to get the population out of the area of hostilities, and their security is also maintained.

Humanitarian corridors are being created in all towns to allow people to leave the area where the fighting is taking place, and their security is being maintained.

In addition, at the initiative of the Ukrainian leadership, the country has become a home to 6,595 foreign mercenaries and terrorists from 62 states.

They are not subject to the rules of war and will be ruthlessly destroyed.

Today, the number of foreign mercenaries is declining. This was facilitated by high-precision strikes on their bases and training camps. On March 13, more than 200 militants were killed and more than 400 wounded in Starichi and at the Yavorovskii training ground alone.

I note that not a single foreign mercenary has arrived in Ukraine in the last seven days. On the contrary, there has been an outflow. Within a week, 285 fighters escaped into Poland, Hungary and Romania, I hope without Stingers and Javelins.

Previous experience has shown that man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) and ATGMs are spreading out fairly quickly, along with the mercenaries who return home.

In general, the main objectives of the first phase of the operation have been achieved. The combat capabilities of Ukraine's Armed Forces have been significantly reduced, which allows us, once again, to concentrate our main efforts on achieving the main goal - the liberation of Donbass.

In eight years, in the area of the so-called "joint forces operation", a defence belt has been prepared that is deeply echeloned and well-fortified in engineering terms, consisting of a system of monolithic, long-term concrete structures.

In this regard, in order to minimise casualties among the troops of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics, the conduct of offensive operations is preceded by a heavy fire attack on the enemy's strongholds and their reserves.

At the beginning of the special military operation, the LPR and DPR people's militias were confronted by a group of 59,300 people comprising the most combat-ready units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the National Guard and nationalist formations.

As a result, Ukraine's security forces in the OOS zone lost about 16,000 people, or 26% of their total strength as of 24 February this year.

More than 7,000 of them were irrecoverable losses.

Replacing losses is prevented by isolating the Ukrainian grouping of troops in Donbass, taking control of railway stations and key road routes with firepower.

The supply of missiles and ammunition, fuel and food to Ukrainian forces has been almost completely halted.

The field depots of missile and artillery weapons and ammunition, as well as fuel located directly in the area of the Joint Forces Operation are being hit. To date, 32 facilities have been destroyed, or 61% of the total.

All weapons and military equipment, including foreign-made, seized by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation during the special military operation are handed over to the People's Republics. Already 113 tanks and other armoured combat vehicles, 138 Javelin and 67 NLAW grenade launchers and other trophy weapons have been handed over.

Units of the People's Militia of the Lugansk People's Republic have liberated 93% of the republic's territory.

Fighting is currently taking place on the outskirts of Severodonetsk and Lysychansk.

The People's Militia of the Donetsk People's Rupublic controls 54% of the territory. The liberation of Mariupol continues.

Units of the Russian Armed Forces together with the People's Militia of the Donetsk People's Republic are conducting an offensive to liberate settlements to the west of Donetsk.

Unfortunately, there are casualties among our comrades-in-arms during the special military operation. As of today, 1,351 servicemen have been killed and 3,825 wounded.

All family support solutions will be taken over by the state, raising children up to higher education, full repayment of loans, housing solutions.

We receive a large number of appeals from Russian citizens wishing to take part in the special military operation to liberate Ukraine from Nazism.

In addition, more than 23,000 foreigners from 37 countries have expressed their willingness to fight on the side of the people's republics. We offered the leadership of the LPR and DPR to accept this assistance, but they said they would defend their land themselves.

They have enough power and resources.

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will continue to conduct a planned special military operation until the tasks set by the Supreme Commander-in-Chief have been completed.

https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation ... 735@egNews
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#147 Post by peterlund » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:26 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:18 am
Speech of the Head of the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy 25.03.2022 (17:29)
...
(Removed the long Putin propaganda text)

Why in hell do you act like a Putin troll posting all that crap in here? Walls of text is what trolls post. A clear sign of where you have your alignment.

Putin will loose this war and he must be humiliated in the process too. No peace treaty is possible as long as he remains in power. Noone should ask Ukraine to give up a single inch of its territory, Crimea included.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#148 Post by Octavious » Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:53 pm

Because it's interesting and not widely reported. I assume that you are perfectly capable of not reading. It's not a difficult skill to master. :-)
peterlund wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:26 am
Putin will loose this war and he must be humiliated in the process too
He doesn't much look like he's losing anything. Ukraine have had several cities wiped off the map and have lost a large chunk of territory. Russia, thanks to the generosity of the European Union, is receiving record amounts of money for its oil and gas exports. In terms of suffering Ukraine is taking the lion's share and doesn't look remotely close to hanging on to areas of the East Russia wants.
peterlund wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:26 am
No peace treaty is possible as long as he remains in power.
Quite obviously this statement is bollocks
peterlund wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:26 am
Noone should ask Ukraine to give up a single inch of its territory, Crimea included
It gave up Crimea nearly a decade ago. As for the rest of Ukraine, whether or not they want to fight on is very much up to them. I dare say that some of those in the east who have had their homes destroyed and friends and family killed may have not considered the price of making a principled stand to be particularly worth paying.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#149 Post by orathaic » Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:35 pm

Those who have already lost everything have nothing left to lose. Thus will happily continue fighting to get their land back...

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#150 Post by Octavious » Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:51 pm

Interesting use of the word happily
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#151 Post by orathaic » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:07 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:51 pm
Interesting use of the word happily
Interesting failure to add anything to discussion.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#152 Post by Octavious » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:16 pm

You want more? I have grown tired of your recent bloodlust, ora. It's not something that I have much time for, and frankly it's come as something of a shock to find it so prominently displayed. Peterlund's combination of European jingoism with an enthusiasm to portray anyone who may disagree as a Putin apologist is pretty much to be expected, and is no different in many ways to the nonsensical "you're with us or against us" mindset popularised by Bush some years back. You, though... you have been a surprise.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#153 Post by orathaic » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:46 pm

Again, making up things you think i said.

Nice to see your fantasy life is going well!

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#154 Post by Octavious » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:23 am

Putin must be defeated
Russia must be destabilised
Russians must be bribed to defect and sabotage equipment
A peace deal attractive to both sides is not an option
Given the chance Russia will return and steamroll its opposition

Which of these statements are you not agreeing with? Because you've been very much demonstrating your agreement previously in this thread. And we're not even mentioning you're approval of Peterlund's rabidly militant extremism demanding the humiliation of our enemy and driving the Russians out of every inch of Ukraine.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#155 Post by Matticus13 » Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:36 pm

https://youtu.be/ISMSIMF-pyY

The negotiations seem to making positive progress.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#156 Post by orathaic » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:13 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:23 am
Putin must be defeated
Russia must be destabilised
Russians must be bribed to defect and sabotage equipment
A peace deal attractive to both sides is not an option
Given the chance Russia will return and steamroll its opposition

Which of these statements are you not agreeing with? Because you've been very much demonstrating your agreement previously in this thread. And we're not even mentioning you're approval of Peterlund's rabidly militant extremism demanding the humiliation of our enemy and driving the Russians out of every inch of Ukraine.
The rather pathetic attempt to describe this as bloodlust.

Putin have demonstrated what he does when he has power. Be it Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, or Ukraine (twice). What makes you think this will he any different?

He escalates. He is smart, but he is a bully. Removing him is the best option for future peace. Not bloodlust, peace. Your inability to see my end goal when seemingly you comprehend everything I've said is where your fantasy kicks in.

Also, i disagree with all of those statements. *should, not must. Putin should be defeated, if we want peace.

How is a seperate question.

But when people show you who they truely are, believe them. Works for you acting the Putin apologist here, as well as it does for Putin. He clearly broadcast his belief that Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist as an independent nation. And wants to undo the mistakes of the collapse of the Soviet Union. His actions speak louder than his words. But he has made clear his intentions. How to remove him is the only question left.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#157 Post by orathaic » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:15 pm

Matticus13 wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:36 pm
https://youtu.be/ISMSIMF-pyY

The negotiations seem to making positive progress.
A) I'll believe it when i see it

and

B) redeploying your forces to attack different cities is not positive progress for ending a conflict.

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Re: War, what is it good for?

#158 Post by Octavious » Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:25 pm

You don't know what the word apologist means, do you? I challenge you to find a single instance of it. I can point to multiple examples of the opposite. And yet you call me a fantasist :lol:
orathaic wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:13 pm
Removing him is the best option for future peace. Not bloodlust, peace.
Gotcha. All we need in order to achieve peace is to wipe our enemy off the face of the Earth. So sayeth every tyrant warmonger in history. Bloodlust, ora, clear as day. A particularly deranged bloodlust as your target for removal has the ability to destroy the world several times over.
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European gas crunch approaches

#159 Post by Octavious » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:14 am

So this week we see one of the more interesting developments in the diplomatic war between Russia and the West come to the crunch point. Russia has insisted that all future payments for Russian gas must be made in roubles, which has helped see the Russian currency recover the majority of value it lost after sanctions were imposed. The EU, however, are refusing to play ball. As the EU pumps billions of dollars of revenue into Russia each week via gas and oil payments, this is a pretty big deal. A very big deal indeed for the European nations heavily dependant on Russian energy.

Both sides have a hell of a lot to lose which in normal circumstances means we see an 11th hour compromise. However we are far from being in normal circumstances. My best guess is that we see everyone panic and agree to something pathetic that just avoids a decision being made for a few more days, but I'm far from certain. Place your bets and spin the wheel.
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Re: War, what is it good for?

#160 Post by orathaic » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:33 pm

All we need in order to achieve peace is to wipe our enemy off the face of the Earth.
Again, this seems rather fantastical. I suggested one method would he to offer Russian troops money to surrender. So not killing them, but giving them better options, and disrupting their ability to fight (as units lose trust in their support if some of those might surrender).

This is the only option i have seen anyone suggest (it wasn't my idea) which actually helps end the war without killing more people.

And you think this is bloodlust. Removing Putin is inevitable. He will die one day and it is only a question of when, and who takes control of Russia after he is gone.

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