After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

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Jamiet99uk
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#41 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:32 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:53 am
Meanwhile in the European Union...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58289893

#MakeEuropeGreatAgain
#BuildThatWall
Donald Trump will be furious he didn't use the same contractor the Greek government has hired. 25+ miles of new wall springing up in just a few days. A lot better than the orange fuckwit managed.
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Randomizer
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#42 Post by Randomizer » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:02 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:32 pm
Donald Trump will be furious he didn't use the same contractor the Greek government has hired. 25+ miles of new wall springing up in just a few days. A lot better than the orange fuckwit managed.
But that contractor wasn't donating to Trump and/or the Republican Party. That's why the US got such incompetent companies getting no bid contracts.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#43 Post by Randomizer » Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:13 am

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-jokes- ... 57402.html
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics ... index.html

Trump went on to boast of his chummy relations with the Taliban, who he described as “great negotiators” and “tough fighters,” insisting that “with me in office the Taliban would not have ever dreamt of capturing our air field or parading around with our American weapons.”

Trump's two attempts to negotiate were inviting them to the White House that encouraged them to attack more and withdrawing all US troops which led to this mess. So much for Trump being a adequate negotiator. He folded like a cheap suit and got nothing that held up.

Trump didn't even leave a plan for withdrawing longer than a tweet that they were leaving.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#44 Post by peterlund » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:02 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:53 am
#MakeEuropeGreatAgain
We do not need that slogan, since we in reality already are great and never have stopped being great either.

Proof of our EU greatness: We still have, as always before too, full stores with plenty of foods on our shelfs. :-)

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#45 Post by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:11 am

That's... really quite a low bar for greatness you have there.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#46 Post by orathaic » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:30 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:16 am
Ora, a reporter saying she's "heard" something is not evidence.


Oh yeah, first hand accounts reported by journalists, famously not 'evidence'.

And the idea that you let the lunatic murderer society win because some government officials are a bit corrupt is a tad bizarre in itself.
I have to point this out, mercanaries do not make great protectors, they take your money when the going is good, and then fuck off when the going gets back (just paraphrasing Machiavelli), it is better to be loved or feared.

Many Afghan people may have loved the US, or they may have feared them, but clearly the corrupt government and military, by and large, acted like mercanaries, ie they were only/mostly in it for the money.

The other issue is that Afghanistan as a unified country has never really existed. People likely identified more with their local tribal grouping than the idea of a centralised national state. The idea that Afghanistan exists is a foreign one, with borders mostly imposed from the outside while internally it has always been divided by geography. So the whole project of setting up an 'Afghan' military was difficult to begin with (even without the corruption).

Urban Afghans are pretty pissed with the Taliban, and 20 years of insurrection, but for the rural areas, the poverty and violence of the last 20 years has largely not been improved by the US presence.

The only thing you can say is that at least Taliban fighters love their country (more than they feared the US / Afghan military anyway). And you can ask why that is.

But the point remains. Nobody loved the corrupt government, and nobody feared it as much as they fear the Taliban.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#47 Post by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:28 am

Ora, 70,000 Afghan military servicemen have died fighting the Taliban. Let's not rubbish their sacrifice with bloody stupid comments dismissing them as glorified mercs
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#48 Post by orathaic » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:01 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:28 am
Ora, 70,000 Afghan military servicemen have died fighting the Taliban. Let's not rubbish their sacrifice with bloody stupid comments dismissing them as glorified mercs
I see you haven't bothered addressing any of the points raised. But nice try.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#49 Post by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:20 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:01 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:28 am
Ora, 70,000 Afghan military servicemen have died fighting the Taliban. Let's not rubbish their sacrifice with bloody stupid comments dismissing them as glorified mercs
I see you haven't bothered addressing any of the points raised. But nice try.
You first point was that the Afghan military acted like mercenaries, and it was complete nonsense built on a foundation of ignorance.

As for your second point on the lack of Afghan national unity, I'm not sure what you want addressing. It's a well known issue.

It's difficult to talk about life in rural areas not improving, as it ignores the vast numbers of rural folk who moved into the cities and whose lives improved significantly. Of the people who who lived in rural areas 20 years ago, many were indeed a lot better off.

I don't understand the point about the Taliban loving their country at all. Did you expect them not to for some reason? I dare say they love their wives and children too. They are not less than human just because they're the enemy.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#50 Post by Randomizer » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:49 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:20 pm
You first point was that the Afghan military acted like mercenaries, and it was complete nonsense built on a foundation of ignorance.
This is an extremely valid point in that soldiers at the local level were reportedly selling their weapons to the Taliban last year. Also soldiers were abandoning their posts to return home and defend their families. Even at the higher ranks loyalty was to themselves.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021 ... so-quickly

https://thediplomat.com/2018/06/how-the ... e-taliban/

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#51 Post by Octavious » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:47 pm

Seventy
Thousand
Deaths

The Afghan army was only around 200,000 strong. If any force takes those kind of losses it will struggle to hold. As Tugendhat said in his excellent speech I posted here on Wednesday:
"Those who have never fought for the colours they fly should be careful about criticising those who have."
https://youtu.be/niR_9VacIEE
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#52 Post by Randomizer » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:05 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/asia/tal ... index.html

Taliban leaders blame attacks on women due to lack of resect training. You could say the same thing in the US about Trump supporters and their lack of respect about democracy. The question is why wee they never taught it?

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#53 Post by orathaic » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:53 pm

1

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#54 Post by Randomizer » Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:50 pm

Thelongest war by the US is ended to a fanatical group 9in Afghanistan. Now a new one is breaking out in the US with fanatical Trump supporters rewriting history. Trump is denying blame for not planning a withdrawal and his treaty with the Taliban didn't encourage them.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#55 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:27 am

In what sense are you defining it as a war, out of interest?
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#56 Post by Randomizer » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:28 am

The US is entering a Civil War with an us (Trump supporter) versus them (all others that don't support Trump). Much like the last Civil War, you have two sides that can't agree and are blocking the other side's agenda. Instead of resolving this with discussions and voting, you are having the Trump side already calling for violence if they don't win on the grounds that if they lost it must be rigged because they are right.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/madison-cawt ... 36449.html

Calling the Jan. 6 rioters as political prisoners some of whom damaged and defaced federal property, the US Capitol building. So under former president Trump's executive order, they should face up to 10 years for their actions.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... l-violence

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#57 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:14 am

These fascists are dangerous nutcases.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#58 Post by leon1122 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:59 am

The Taliban is the rightful and legitimate government of Afghanistan, and it is good to see them back in power. That said, Biden did a piss-poor job at an orderly withdrawal.

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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#59 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:37 am

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:28 am
The US is entering a Civil War with an us (Trump supporter) versus them (all others that don't support Trump). Much like the last Civil War, you have two sides that can't agree and are blocking the other side's agenda. Instead of resolving this with discussions and voting, you are having the Trump side already calling for violence if they don't win on the grounds that if they lost it must be rigged because they are right.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/madison-cawt ... 36449.html

Calling the Jan. 6 rioters as political prisoners some of whom damaged and defaced federal property, the US Capitol building. So under former president Trump's executive order, they should face up to 10 years for their actions.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... l-violence
I was actually referring to the US in Afghanistan. I keep seeing it referred to as the USA's longest war, which I find somewhat baffling as it hasn't resembled a war in any real sense from the American perspective for quite some time. That and the war between the US government and American Indians surely lasted a hell of a lot longer. The Civil War talk is a load of bunkum I've very little interest in, besides a curiosity about how people end up believing in such things.

leon1122 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:59 am
The Taliban is the rightful and legitimate government of Afghanistan, and it is good to see them back in power. That said, Biden did a piss-poor job at an orderly withdrawal.
I look forward to seeing you support the return of the colonies to the House of Windsor.
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Re: After 20 years of fighting the Taliban

#60 Post by leon1122 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:43 am

I look forward to seeing you support the return of the colonies to the House of Windsor.
Self-determination. Americans wanted independence, so the American government is legitimate. Likewise, Afghans chose to have the Taliban as their government, so the Taliban is their legitimate government. Governments propped up by foreign intervention are illegitimate.

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