Southern Boarder

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FriendBoy
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Southern Boarder

#1 Post by FriendBoy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:57 pm

I was looking around the forum, and didn’t see a topic on this, so thought I would bring it up. I think most everyone concedes that there is a problem at the US/Mexico boarder. There are varying opinions on what should be done about it, any thoughts? I’m curious to hear.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#2 Post by Octavious » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:33 pm

Trump's wall was a remarkably effective tool to tackle the issue. Obviously the physical structure itself was rather limited, but the message it sent out, that illegal immigrants were very much not welcome, achieved a great deal. Biden could do a lot to reduce the problem by finishing the wall. Sadly, the political reality means this option is only available to Republican Presidents.

Biden could also reverse his reversal of a number of Trump era policies, such as the unaccompanied minor policy. Get rid of some of the carrots, and start waving the stick more vigorously.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#3 Post by Matticus13 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:10 am

I'm not in favor of a remarkably effective wall metaphor that cost billions of taxpayer dollars (since Mexico really isn't going to be paying for it) and achieves zero in the real world.
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Re: Southern Boarder

#4 Post by Octavious » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:14 pm

I'm in favour of whatever helps the problem, be it a metaphor or otherwise. There's perhaps a valid argument that other solutions may be more cost effective, but it achieved a lot more than zero and provided a fair few well paid jobs whilst doing it. As for who pays for it, the existence of Mexico generates a fair few dollars for the US. If someone wants to declare that the dollars paying for the wall were generated by Mexico, why not? It's no different to saying dollars from fag sales pay for medical care, or an extra penny on income tax has paid for x number of schools.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#5 Post by orathaic » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:57 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:14 pm
I'm in favour of whatever helps the problem, be it a metaphor or otherwise.
What makes it a problem? Million emigrated from Europe to the US over the years, and the result was a net positive for the country. Many people in (for example) Texas employ migrant workers, and most free marketeers would say this is a good thing (I have Texan cousins who wondered what the whole agri-industry was going to do with Trump's wall).

So first, what is the problem?

Second, if there are other countries which are worse off and mainly inside the US's sphere of influence (ie South America, disregarding Syrian and Afghani refugees here) then why are they worse off? Have they not had the effective protection of the US for probably a hundred years at this point (since Spain was defeated by the US and the US basically said European powers should stay out of the Americas).

Oct, if you are in favour of any solution which works, what do you suggest to help make other places more attractive to stay in?

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Re: Southern Boarder

#6 Post by Octavious » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:50 pm

It's a problem because America says it is. If they were to decide it wasn't then it wouldn't be, although I dare say a whole host of interesting new problems would rapidly develop if so. It's really quite simple.

As for your second point, what we encounter to some extent is a conflict of principle. In this case the principle of a pragmatic approach to problem solving versus the principle of letting other nations run their country as they see fit. Venezuela, for example, would benefit massively if their authoritarian socialist government were removed from power, yet acting to achieve that goal isn't at all desirable unless there's a pretty major immediate need. Mexico can barely be called a democracy based on the alarming number of candidates that failed to survive the most recent "elections", and yet what could America do to actually help?

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Re: Southern Boarder

#7 Post by orathaic » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:26 pm

That is a weird dichotomy, you seem to know what is best for Venezuela, and yet whatever the US says is best for them is right.

Almost like you are a closet racist who sees South American countries who vote for socialism as children who don't know how to govern themselves. As opposed to countries which have repeatedly seen US military intervention and know that allowing the US corporate takeover of their countries is actually a bad thing (as it has been for more than 50 years).

"it is a problem because US propoganda keeps repeating this until we believe it as a fact" sounds pretty damn naive.
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Re: Southern Boarder

#8 Post by Octavious » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:36 pm

Ah, I see. You really have completely abandoned any pretence of trying to engage in a mature debate. As you wish. I hope you find your peace one day.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#9 Post by orathaic » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:49 pm

Just for clarity, here is a map of US coups and attempted coups in the America's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ ... Lat-Am.png

The fact is, communisn brought Russia and China from agricultural backward economies, to being world powers within ~50 years (China wasn't Communist until 1949). Whereas US Imperialism in South and Central America has repeatedly supported dictators, overthrown democratically elected officials, and pushed for the extraction of profits by US multinationals.
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Re: Southern Boarder

#10 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:50 pm
It's a problem because America says it is.
Define "America" for the purposes of this statement? The American government? The American people? The American media? Some Americans on the Internet?

Octavious wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:50 pm
Venezuela, for example, would benefit massively if their authoritarian socialist government were removed from power.
Imperialist "white man knows best" claptrap at its very finest.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#11 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:56 am

orathaic wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:49 pm
Just for clarity, here is a map of US coups and attempted coups in the America's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ ... Lat-Am.png

The fact is, communisn brought Russia and China from agricultural backward economies, to being world powers within ~50 years (China wasn't Communist until 1949). Whereas US Imperialism in South and Central America has repeatedly supported dictators, overthrown democratically elected officials, and pushed for the extraction of profits by US multinationals.
America's record of murder and illegal intervention in South America is well documented. America is the bad guy in this narrative, beyond any doubt. America claims to be the world's greatest supporter of democracy, yet it hates, oppresses, and shuts down democracies in South America, by extreme force if necessary, any time they happen to elect socialist governments that the US doesn't like. The US is a bully and an imperialist aggressor.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#12 Post by Matticus13 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:48 am

The current governor of Texas is pledging to build the wall in Texas with Texan taxpayer dollars. That's fine by me. I can get behind that.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#13 Post by Octavious » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 am
Define "America" for the purposes of this statement? The American government? The American people? The American media? Some Americans on the Internet?
Clearly if any American sees it as a problem it is a problem for that particular American, but in the context of this discussion I'd have thought it pretty non controversial to all but the most extreme ideologues that if the government, media, and vast swathes of the population see it as a problem, it can be defined as an American problem. If you are going to waste time arguing the toss on whether or not the sky is blue then further discussion will be a pointless waste of effort.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 am
Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:50 pm
Venezuela, for example, would benefit massively if their authoritarian socialist government were removed from power.
Imperialist "white man knows best" claptrap at its very finest.
Your ignorance is very much on display today, Jamie. I used to live there and know Venezuela's situation rather better than "misogynist white Jamie who knows best"

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Re: Southern Boarder

#14 Post by orathaic » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:06 pm

Matticus13 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:48 am
The current governor of Texas is pledging to build the wall in Texas with Texan taxpayer dollars. That's fine by me. I can get behind that.
Are you a Texan? Do you own any businesses in Texas which employs migrant workers? What problem is the Texan governor addressing by doing this?

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Re: Southern Boarder

#15 Post by orathaic » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:24 pm

Just to cite a single example:
In 1912, during the Banana Wars period, the U.S. occupied Nicaragua as a means of protecting American business interests and protecting the rights that Nicaragua granted to the United States to construct a canal there.[49] The intervention, utilizing the U.S. Marine Corps, was sparked by a rebellion that opposed the United States. After quelling the rebellion, the U.S. continued occupying Nicaragua until 1933
-wikipedia

The US has treated South and Central American like European countries treated their Imperial colonies, and this largely meant extracting resources and exploiting locals. The biggest difference (I suspect) is that the US government was mostly hands off except when corporate interests were threatened (whether by local political violence or legal changes implemented by left wing governments).

The notable exception is Puerto Rico, which became a full colony. And still has federal taxation without federal representation (ironic given the US's creation myth) - NB I am deliberately ignoring the Philippines as they are not in the Americas.

I suspect there would be an interesting comparison between Puerto Rico and other jurisdictions. But I don't have decent data to use. How does Puerto Rico s economy compare with full US states? And how does its' colonisation compare with similar
Latin America countries which only suffered from repeated military intervention?

I suspect we would find (despite Octavious' claim to the contrary) we will find that military intervention has negetaively affected most Latin American economies. (especially Contrasted with Cuba, who has only suffered economic sanctions).
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Re: Southern Boarder

#16 Post by Matticus13 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:11 am

orathaic wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:06 pm
Matticus13 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:48 am
The current governor of Texas is pledging to build the wall in Texas with Texan taxpayer dollars. That's fine by me. I can get behind that.
Are you a Texan? Do you own any businesses in Texas which employs migrant workers? What problem is the Texan governor addressing by doing this?
I am not a Texan. Their state government can do as they see fit as long as it doesn't violate the Supremacy Clause. I don't think it solves much of anything, but it's their tax $$$, not mine.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#17 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:51 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am
Your ignorance is very much on display today, Jamie. I used to live there and know Venezuela's situation rather better than "misogynist white Jamie who knows best"
Over the course of our debates you've been a Liberal Democrat David Cameron supporter who was also a Labour Party member who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. You position yourself as a political moderate whilst constantly speaking up in favour of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. Now South America is mentioned and suddenly you used to live in Venezuela despite never, to my knowledge, having mentioned this detail before.

I no longer believe anything you say.
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Re: Southern Boarder

#18 Post by flash2015 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:26 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:51 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am
Your ignorance is very much on display today, Jamie. I used to live there and know Venezuela's situation rather better than "misogynist white Jamie who knows best"
Over the course of our debates you've been a Liberal Democrat David Cameron supporter who was also a Labour Party member who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. You position yourself as a political moderate whilst constantly speaking up in favour of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. Now South America is mentioned and suddenly you used to live in Venezuela despite never, to my knowledge, having mentioned this detail before.

I no longer believe anything you say.
You have to be impressed with Octavious's chutzpah. He casually pulls the "I lived there card so I know better than you" (assuming you believe it is actually true, which I doubt)...but on the other hand he also claims to be a better expert on US politics than pretty much anyone that actually lives here.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#19 Post by flash2015 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:51 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am
Your ignorance is very much on display today, Jamie. I used to live there and know Venezuela's situation rather better than "misogynist white Jamie who knows best"
Over the course of our debates you've been a Liberal Democrat David Cameron supporter who was also a Labour Party member who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. You position yourself as a political moderate whilst constantly speaking up in favour of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. Now South America is mentioned and suddenly you used to live in Venezuela despite never, to my knowledge, having mentioned this detail before.

I no longer believe anything you say.
You left out his stints at Jewish Voice For Peace and Extinction Rebellion... :P
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Re: Southern Boarder

#20 Post by Octavious » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:32 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:51 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am
Your ignorance is very much on display today, Jamie. I used to live there and know Venezuela's situation rather better than "misogynist white Jamie who knows best"
Over the course of our debates you've been a Liberal Democrat David Cameron supporter who was also a Labour Party member who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. You position yourself as a political moderate whilst constantly speaking up in favour of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. Now South America is mentioned and suddenly you used to live in Venezuela despite never, to my knowledge, having mentioned this detail before.

I no longer believe anything you say.
Lying again, Jamie? I have never voted for, nor claimed to vote for, Jeremy Corbyn. I have no idea where you get these ridiculous notions.

As for Venezuela, it has come up several times over the years, although I don't have any expectation of you remembering. What irritates is your automatic assumption that no one else can possibly know as much as you

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