Southern Boarder

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Octavious
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Re: Southern Boarder

#21 Post by Octavious » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:50 pm

And quite why you have such trouble with supporting the Lib Dems after David Cameron I have no idea. They were in the same government, for crying out loud. There's very little difference between the right of the Lib Dems and centrist Tories, and I challenge you to argue otherwise. When the Lib Dems aligned themselves to my views on Europe supporting them was the obvious choice.

As for Boris, I have never voted for him to be Prime Minister, although he seems the best option out of a not particularly promising selection. He is indeed a moderate. I have repeatedly told you that I don't support Trump, and would never vote for him, but some of his policies I agree with. This is very normal in the real world. Hardly anyone ever agrees with everything their preferred party says.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: Southern Boarder

#22 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:06 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:32 pm
Lying again, Jamie? I have never voted for, nor claimed to vote for, Jeremy Corbyn. I have no idea where you get these ridiculous notions.
You literally said in a thread in the past week or two that you joined the Labour Party around about the time Corbyn became leader, and voted for him, did you not? It was in the thread about Israeli genocide.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#23 Post by Octavious » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:08 pm

I did not.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#24 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:18 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:08 pm
I did not.
Fine, I'm a lunatic who makes up lies for fun, and you're the cleverest and most reasonable man that ever lived. You have won the internet and I accept that you are better at online arguments than me. Please enjoy your victory.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#25 Post by Octavious » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:21 pm

Seriously, if you think I've said something something the onus is on you to prove that I said it. Find the quote and paste it here. If not I'll thank you for not continually making up lies about me.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#26 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:22 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:21 pm
Seriously, if you think I've said something something the onus is on you to prove that I said it. Find the quote and paste it here. If not I'll thank you for not continually making up lies about me.
I'd rather just try to forget that you exist.

Octavious
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Re: Southern Boarder

#27 Post by Octavious » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:04 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:22 pm
Octavious wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:21 pm
Seriously, if you think I've said something something the onus is on you to prove that I said it. Find the quote and paste it here. If not I'll thank you for not continually making up lies about me.
I'd rather just try to forget that you exist.
Then fuck off and stop replying to my comments. It ain't rocket science. If you don't want to speak to me then the easiest way of achieving that is by not constantly replying to me with an endless stream of lies and misogynistic insults. If you're too much of a coward to admit even your most obvious of mistakes then there's certainly no value to me of speaking to you, and if you don't get any value from it either then do us both a favour and fuck off.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#28 Post by orathaic » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:20 pm

So Oct, I know you seem annoyed that I called your BS out, but have you no responce to my clear claims that US intervention is bad, and has directly contributed to the reason for migrants wanting to move to where the wealth is?

Octavious
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Re: Southern Boarder

#29 Post by Octavious » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:39 pm

Ora, you completely ignored my point that I believe nations should be allowed to run themselves and that I didn't see much that the US could do to improve matters, and went off on a bizarre little rant about racism because I think that the increasingly authoritarian Venezuelan government are doing a bloody awful job and Venezuela would be far better off without them. If you consider that to be "calling out bullshit" then we are miles apart in our interpretation of events.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#30 Post by Randomizer » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:23 pm

Trump's Wall was a bad joke on the American taxpayer. It costed on average $4.6 million per mile and was climbable with a $5 ladder. Contract costs were increasing with no oversight to rein in costs. It took money from defense contracts that were for improving US security and helping military families.

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/10/27 ... ing-trump/

Worse in some areas it created roads and removed terrain obstacles that previously prevent migrants from crossing into the US. It did nothing to protect our border with Canada where terrorists had crossed into the US since the Bush administration.

This doesn't include the wall section that fell over because the contractor didn't brzce it during construction. The private Texas wall section that is eroding from being built too close to the river. Or the Bannon and company fraud hre money went to provide luxuries for the leaders.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/20/politics ... index.html
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Re: Southern Boarder

#31 Post by orathaic » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:51 am

Octavious wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:39 pm
Ora, you completely ignored my point that I believe nations should be allowed to run themselves and that I didn't see much that the US could do to improve matters, and went off on a bizarre little rant about racism because I think that the increasingly authoritarian Venezuelan government are doing a bloody awful job and Venezuela would be far better off without them. If you consider that to be "calling out bullshit" then we are miles apart in our interpretation of events.
Yes, I fully ignored your claim that you believe countries should run themselves, because it is (again) immediately followed up by 'except Venezuela'.

Do you believe Venezuelais not a country?

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Re: Southern Boarder

#32 Post by Octavious » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:55 am

Er... Ora, tell me you're not struggling with this basic concept?

It is possible to believe both that someone should be allowed to eat what they wish, and that them eating a kilo of chocolate at once is a bad idea, at the same time. There is no contradiction.

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Re: Southern Border

#33 Post by flash2015 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:33 pm

What I don't understand is why no one fixed the title...
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Re: Southern Border

#34 Post by FriendBoy » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:58 am

flash2015 wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is why no one fixed the title...
;)

I have enjoyed (mostly) reading the responses here and hearing the different views. Not too many solutions given though, and rather a bit of bashing instead...which is funny, because that's what happens in the government too.

I guess the main question should be that of: "Why are there so many migrants, and what can be done to make them content where they are." I think orathaic said something like that.

As to what the problem at the southern boarder is, it is a lot of people coming into the United States, many of which are coming illegally. Kids are being thrown across the boarder, and trafficking has increased.
Finally, what about Covid? You may have noticed extra hassle in air travel recently, if you have attempted travel. Everyone on-board flights have to produce a negative PCR test before flying. Before entering the UK, you also need to fill out a Passenger Locator Form. Nobody wants more Covid, so there are restrictions on movement. Illegal movement is a good way to bring in Covid.

Just a few reasons why the southern boarder is a problem. There are of course more.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#35 Post by Randomizer » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 pm

Trump did such a poor job with Covid-10 that illegal migrants slowed down to stay in healthier southern countries. :)

Trump cancelled funding for older economic programs designed to encourage people to stay in their home countries. But what can you expect from a failed businessman that didn't understand how the economy worked.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#36 Post by FriendBoy » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 am

Randomizer wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 pm
Trump did such a poor job with Covid-10 that illegal migrants slowed down to stay in healthier southern countries. :)

Trump cancelled funding for older economic programs designed to encourage people to stay in their home countries. But what can you expect from a failed businessman that didn't understand how the economy worked.
At least gas was cheaper

Octavious
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Re: Southern Boarder

#37 Post by Octavious » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:34 am

FriendBoy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:58 am
I guess the main question should be that of: "Why are there so many migrants, and what can be done to make them content where they are." I think orathaic said something like that.
The trouble is, as the experience of recent history... and most of the rest of history for that matter... has taught us, attempts to fix other countries rarely works. The very direct approach to fix Iraq failed abysmally. The more indirect approach applied to Libya in which we heavily supported friendly looking factions failed abysmally. The standoffish approach we took with Syria in which we largely let them get on with it failed abysmally. As ora has said, previous US foreign initiatives in South America has achieved mixed results, whilst liberal immigration policies has drained South America of a significant proportion of its best and brightest. The majority of my Venezuelan friends are now living in Florida where they are slowly turning into godawful Yanks. Others have moved to Switzerland and, rather appropriately, Venice.

Naturally enough any problem of international politics is unlikely to be simple enough to solve over the duration of an internet discussion, otherwise it would have ceased to be a problem long ago. What we can do is discuss the issues to expand our own understanding and give insights into the points of view of others, which can be useful to us if not to the people experiencing the issue directly.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#38 Post by orathaic » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm

@Oct, interesting that you give 3 examples of 'we need to fix them', rather than looking at it as a 'we should ask them how we can help them fix themselves'.

You have it correct, unilateral action rarely works. (establishing democracy in Iraq was far less successful than re-establishing institutions in post war Germany, where the German people had a cultural history of trusting institutions) what you need is partners on the ground.

And this has worked very well for the US in South and Central America, in the sense that the goal of partnering with governments which would facilitate US corporations to come in and make a profit. Unfortunately, the goal was extracting profit, and not building up local economies, providing employment or other pull factors to make it more attractive to stay in your own country.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#39 Post by Octavious » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
@Oct, interesting that you give 3 examples of 'we need to fix them', rather than looking at it as a 'we should ask them how we can help them fix themselves'.
Define "them" in this context, because depending on who you ask in any particular nation you will get a wide variety of conflicting answers. You could default to the government, but often for countries with issues big enough to encourage mass emigration the government is a large part of the problem.

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Re: Southern Boarder

#40 Post by orathaic » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:06 pm

I mean, you can of course go around undermining national governments, but as you pointed out that doesn't always work well.

But it also depends on who you are. Lots of NGOs do emergency aid, but what is perhaps more important is understanding development aid, and why it doesn't seem to work (Vietnam for example managed to develop without much international aid - I assume because both the Chinese and Americans were against helping them - but they did it by going to the intenational bond market, which requires convincing bond buyers your country is a good investment). So I don't know what the right answer is.

Again, the Marshall plan helped re-develop western Europe, but rebuilding institutions is much easier than developing them from scratch.

Still there is no reason to presume that local NGOs can't address the worst issues which are driving people to leave.

Though i am of course biased towards reversing the corporate extraction of resources as the first step. I'm sure there are other options, like helping build trust in democratic institutions - instead of threatening countries whose democracy happens to elect socialist politicians...

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