Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

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flash2015
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#61 Post by flash2015 » Tue May 18, 2021 6:46 pm

orathaic wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:28 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm

Not even talking about arms sales.

The US gifts Billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel every year, described as "military aid".
Ie the US tax payer gifts money to Israel on condition that they buy US weapons which supports profits (and arguably jobs) in a wide variety of US states.
You seriously have any doubts on this? I thought everyone knew that the policy was "Leave No Military Contractor Behind"...

I don't believe it is the driver of US policy though. Israel is a hard problem with no easy answers...that US Presidents only dare to tackle once they have lost control of Congress, probably under investigation for some scandal and have nothing better to do with their time.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#62 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 18, 2021 7:22 pm

orathaic wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:28 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm

Not even talking about arms sales.

The US gifts Billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel every year, described as "military aid".
Ie the US tax payer gifts money to Israel on condition that they buy US weapons which supports profits (and arguably jobs) in a wide variety of US states.
That's functionally the same thing.

What's your point?

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#63 Post by Matticus13 » Tue May 18, 2021 7:34 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:05 am
Matticus13 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 5:00 am
The single state solution surely would have it's hiccups, and definitely seems like a non-starter for this generation of Palestinians. But, really... Is there a better (feasible) option? The two state solution has never been a viable option. The demands on both sides have been unreasonable (on purpose).
The single state solution is a non starter as with it comes the inevitably of the Jewish population of Israel becoming the minority, and the history of Jewish minorities is not a happy one. And, as you say, the two state solution has never been close.

The only practicable solution I can see is compensated resettlement. The population of Gaza and the West Bank is not huge. We're talking fewer than 5 million people. The Gaza Strip is approximately 2 of those millions. Assuming a home for every 4 people and to rehouse them will require 500,000 homes. At Egyptian prices we're talking around a cost of 10 billion dollars. Provide every man, woman and child with education or training and a basic living allowance for 5 years to allow easy integration into Egypt, and you can treble this figure. Provide Egypt a financial incentive to take this population so that they can sell the idea to Egyptians as a great deal for Egypt that will create jobs and inject much needed cash into public services, and the lot can be achieved for under 100 billion. Do the same for the West Bank and Jordan and the grand total comes in at under a quarter of a trillion dollars.

The Iraq war, by way of contrast, cost around 2 trillion dollars. So Israel and Palestine can be resolved forever for a small fraction of this cost.

It will never happen, of course, as Israel itself can't afford it and the US finds it far easier to spend vast sums of money on war rather than peace when taking about foreign lands, as do all nations. Especially when the opposition to the idea can scream ethnic cleansing to try and kill it off, regardless of whether or not the Palestinians might actually prefer a fresh start and hope to a future of perpetual war and poverty. Still, it's just a thought.
Nah. There's nothing in it for the military industrial complex, unless they're building the condos... Not a bad idea though.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#64 Post by orathaic » Wed May 19, 2021 8:20 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:22 pm
orathaic wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:28 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm

Not even talking about arms sales.

The US gifts Billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel every year, described as "military aid".
Ie the US tax payer gifts money to Israel on condition that they buy US weapons which supports profits (and arguably jobs) in a wide variety of US states.
That's functionally the same thing.

What's your point?
My point is that US tax payers are gifting weapons to Israel, because politicians get to claim they are creating jobs in the arms industry at home.

I don't mean to disagree with you, the principle of a gift and weapons is what you said it is. The fact that it is coming directly from tax payers and that arms industry profiteers are making money while likely giving campaign donations to politicians all seems pretty corrupt.

But tax payers seeing their money being taken and used to give weapons (for free) to Israel - should annoy anyone who isn't a Zionist.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#65 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 19, 2021 11:34 am

orathaic wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:20 am
But tax payers seeing their money being taken and used to give weapons (for free) to Israel, which uses them to murder civilians on a wholesale basis, should annoy anyone who isn't a Zionist.
I amended it slightly, but you are right.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#66 Post by flash2015 » Wed May 19, 2021 4:24 pm

Matticus13 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:34 pm
Octavious wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:05 am

The only practicable solution I can see is compensated resettlement.

<snip>
Nah. There's nothing in it for the military industrial complex, unless they're building the condos... Not a bad idea though.
I think this should be discussed...if only to make clear that this is what will effectively happen anyway without any peace deal. The only difference being is that there won't be a "compensated" part.

Just look at the settlement map over time:

https://www.vox.com/world/2016/12/30/14 ... n-5-charts

These settlements will continue to increase in size over time. The longer the settlements stay the deeper the roots will become. People will have children, these children will get married and have grandchildren...it doesn't take long before much of the settlement population doesn't even know of a life outside of these settlements. To them this will be the only home they know.

It is frustrating that the Palestinians can't realize what an incredibly poor negotiating position they are really in.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#67 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 4:24 pm
It is frustrating that the Palestinians can't realize what an incredibly poor negotiating position they are really in.
What makes you think most Palestinians don't realise this?

They are literally being killed.

What are they supposed to do?

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#68 Post by flash2015 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:39 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 4:24 pm
It is frustrating that the Palestinians can't realize what an incredibly poor negotiating position they are really in.
What makes you think most Palestinians don't realise this?
Because many still are asking for things that have no chance of happening? Israel isn't going away, "right of return" ain't happening.
They are literally being killed.

What are they supposed to do?
Not what they are doing now.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#69 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 19, 2021 11:41 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:39 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm
They are literally being killed.

What are they supposed to do?
Not what they are doing now.
What a helpful non-answer.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#70 Post by flash2015 » Thu May 20, 2021 2:26 am

I think I explained above. The propaganda war is the one they need to concentrate on.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#71 Post by Matticus13 » Thu May 20, 2021 2:34 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 11:41 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:39 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm
They are literally being killed.

What are they supposed to do?
Not what they are doing now.
What a helpful non-answer.
Not indiscriminately firing over 3000 rockets at strictly civilian populations within Israel. Not launching them from within their own cities, effectively trying to use Palestinian civilians as cover. If you couldn't tell, Hamas is making the situation worse for the people they claim to want to help/protect.

Maybe they should find some new leadership? Someone who actually gives a fuck about the well-being of the two million Palestinians stuck in that hellhole.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#72 Post by orathaic » Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:34 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 11:41 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:39 pm


Not what they are doing now.
What a helpful non-answer.
Not indiscriminately firing over 3000 rockets at strictly civilian populations within Israel. Not launching them from within their own cities, effectively trying to use Palestinian civilians as cover. If you couldn't tell, Hamas is making the situation worse for the people they claim to want to help/protect.

Maybe they should find some new leadership? Someone who actually gives a fuck about the well-being of the two million Palestinians stuck in that hellhole.
Classic 'self defence is making things worse' victim blaming.

I imagine is this was a domestic violence situation you would be saying Palestine should simply go to the police, after the police have spent decades ignoring reports of violence.

What Palestine definitely shouldn't do is retaliate with violence, the only language Israel seems to understand, especially when Israel's missile defence is so effective. ~90% of missiles shot down?

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#73 Post by orathaic » Thu May 20, 2021 5:26 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 11:34 am
orathaic wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:20 am
But tax payers seeing their money being taken and used to give weapons (for free) to Israel, which uses them to murder civilians on a wholesale basis, should annoy anyone who isn't a Zionist.
I amended it slightly, but you are right.
I think you and I both know that they simply don't care. Unless Palestinians suddenly wakeup White tomorrow, or the US suddenly wakes up *not* racist... Whereas caring about the budget deficit, 'my tax dollars', and giving free stuff to people in need, seems to be a hobby for most in the US.

Think, that money could be spent ending homelessness (ie building homes for people in need,and going to create jobs for US contractors who build said homes.. . )
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#74 Post by Octavious » Thu May 20, 2021 7:00 am

Absolutely, ora, because being white did wonders for the people of Ukraine and Nagorno-Karabakh. But never let reality get in the way of your narrative that it's all about race.
orathaic wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 am
Classic 'self defence is making things worse' victim blaming.
Self defence?!? You've moved firmly into utter loon territory here. Firing thousands of missiles randomly in the direction of civilian populations is not self defence. It would be the equivalent to BLM deciding to protest by spending a month randomly firing assault rifles in shopping centres. It isn't self defence, it's a self defeating murder spree.
orathaic wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 am
violence, the only language Israel seems to understand
The Israeli leadership understand it all right, and what they understand is that it gives them a free hand to do whatever the hell they want. Not only is the Hamas attempt to slaughter civilians evil, it is profoundly stupid from the perspective of Palestinian self interest. The only people it benefits are the Hamas and Israeli leadership
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#75 Post by Matticus13 » Thu May 20, 2021 12:21 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 am
Classic 'self defence is making things worse' victim blaming.
Please, explain how firing on civilian targets is self-defense.

I don't know how someone could argue that the escalation in violence isn't making things worse for Palestinians... Over 200 dead, nearly 2,000 wounded so far.

This isn't even taking into account that Benjamin Netanyahu was on the verge of losing his grip on the government. Now, they are likely going back to the polls to try again. My money is on the strongman retaining power in light of current events.
orathaic wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 am
I imagine is this was a domestic violence situation you would be saying Palestine should simply go to the police, after the police have spent decades ignoring reports of violence.
No. Using your example, this would be like trying to kill family members of the person who beat you, but in the process you actually kill more of your own family. At last count, they had killed 12 Israelis with their homebrew rockets (1 soldier, 11 civilians) and 17 Palestinians... Super effective.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#76 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 20, 2021 3:52 pm

Matticus13 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 12:21 pm
Please, explain how firing on civilian targets is self-defense.
Doesn't it bother you that Israel is firing on civilian targets on a daily basis?

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#77 Post by flash2015 » Thu May 20, 2021 5:13 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:26 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 11:34 am
orathaic wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:20 am
But tax payers seeing their money being taken and used to give weapons (for free) to Israel, which uses them to murder civilians on a wholesale basis, should annoy anyone who isn't a Zionist.
I amended it slightly, but you are right.
I think you and I both know that they simply don't care. Unless Palestinians suddenly wakeup White tomorrow, or the US suddenly wakes up *not* racist... Whereas caring about the budget deficit, 'my tax dollars', and giving free stuff to people in need, seems to be a hobby for most in the US.
Isn't this a tad oversimplified? There isn't that much ethnic difference between Israelis and Palestinians. Many could be either based on look alone. Palestinians were also looked on much more positively in the 90s. The War On Terror propaganda since then has been very effective in changing public opinion. But just as it was shifted in one direction it can also be shifted in the other direction too.

Saying the problem is "Racism, QED" is also quite defeatist. If you think that then there is no hope. Palestinians are screwed.
Think, that money could be spent ending homelessness (ie building homes for people in need,and going to create jobs for US contractors who build said homes.. . )
A lot of money is sent to Israel, sure, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what would be required to solve US homeless issues.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#78 Post by Matticus13 » Thu May 20, 2021 6:44 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:52 pm
Matticus13 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 12:21 pm
Please, explain how firing on civilian targets is self-defense.
Doesn't it bother you that Israel is firing on civilian targets on a daily basis?
Yes. I'm not exclusively on Israel's side.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#79 Post by orathaic » Thu May 20, 2021 10:26 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:13 pm

Isn't this a tad oversimplified?

I don't think it is just racism. There is also religion, culture, and propoganda.

But I stand by my point. Jamie is right that people should care that Palestinians are being killed in huge numbers. Ethnic cleansing has been mentioned. But they don't. And they haven't for decades.
There isn't that much ethnic difference between Israelis and Palestinians. Many could be either based on look alone. Palestinians were also looked on much more positively in the 90s. The War On Terror propaganda since then has been very effective in changing public opinion. But just as it was shifted in one direction it can also be shifted in the other direction too.

Saying the problem is "Racism, QED" is also quite defeatist. If you think that then there is no hope. Palestinians are screwed.

I'm pretty sure Israel welcomes Jewish populations from all over the world. Many Russians and Americans are very white. In my limited experience I went to college with two Irish/Americans of Jewish descent, both would be 'not much different from Irish/Americans'.

There are some interesting parallel between Irish and Jewish populations, in the history of oppression and becoming White. But the point is racism is not about skin colour or ethnicity. It is about which groups are currently targetted and which are accepted as part of the dominant culture.
Think, that money could be spent ending homelessness (ie building homes for people in need,and going to create jobs for US contractors who build said homes.. . )
A lot of money is sent to Israel, sure, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what would be required to solve US homeless issues.
A drop in the bucket is still better than nothing.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#80 Post by flash2015 » Fri May 21, 2021 3:12 am

orathaic wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:26 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:13 pm

Isn't this a tad oversimplified?

I don't think it is just racism. There is also religion, culture, and propoganda.

But I stand by my point. Jamie is right that people should care that Palestinians are being killed in huge numbers. Ethnic cleansing has been mentioned. But they don't. And they haven't for decades.
I am not saying that people shouldn't care. I absolutely want them to care too. I am worried about the slow-moving ethnic cleansing. I want a proper two state solution in the Middle East where Palestine is viable.

If people are not caring, there are reasons for it. Try and understand why rather than just maligning them or writing them off.

I'm pretty sure Israel welcomes Jewish populations from all over the world. Many Russians and Americans are very white. In my limited experience I went to college with two Irish/Americans of Jewish descent, both would be 'not much different from Irish/Americans'.

There are some interesting parallel between Irish and Jewish populations, in the history of oppression and becoming White. But the point is racism is not about skin colour or ethnicity. It is about which groups are currently targetted and which are accepted as part of the dominant culture.


I worked for an Israeli company for many years and I had to travel to Israel many times. I am telling you what I saw with my own eyes.

You were the one that said "Unless Palestinians suddenly wakeup White tomorrow" suggesting that it was all about skin colour. I responded to that.

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