Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

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flash2015
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#41 Post by flash2015 » Mon May 17, 2021 11:43 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 9:02 pm
To put it another way, Flash, the rockets from Gaza are a desperate response from a people who have been kicked and beaten and abused and starved and murdered and imprisoned by a force of zealous settler colonists over the last several decades. Gaza is a prison camp and the Israelis have been carrying out a long and painful campaign of genocide against the people forced to live in it.
I understand what you are saying...but the Palestinians can't win this militarily. They just can't....and I don't see anything changing in the near future that will change that. With walls, checkpoints and the Iron Dome, Israel is largely immune from almost anything the Palestinians could potentially do. And the Palestinian position continues to get weaker as former allies normalize relations with Israel.

Ultimately it is a propaganda war the Palestinians need to win and they have been getting their asses whipped in this area for at least the past two decades (Osama Bin Laden and the war on terror was the gift that kept on giving). Israelis know how important the propaganda war is, they even had game shows where the winner was the person that could best present Israel in a positive light (e.g. the Ambassador).

The rocket attack continued to hurt the Palestinians in the propaganda war...especially since the Israelis can show on the evening news rockets going into residential areas (even though in reality little damage actually occurs). The propaganda war is not only in the international community, but in Israel itself. Not everyone in Israel is an extremist like Netanyahu and his allies. There are people in Israel that would be genuinely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Lots and lots of lefties are Jewish.

The Palestinians of course need to be realistic about this. Israel is not going away. They can't continue to insist that their goal is that Israel disappears. I understand there are Israelis that believe that they should have total control over the area too. They need to make them the extremists though. They need to be the reasonable ones.

It is a tough road...but I don't any other options that will actually give them results. There is a slow moving ethnic cleansing going on...and if nothing changes the Israeli extremists will eventually succeed.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#42 Post by Randomizer » Tue May 18, 2021 12:52 am

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/ ... -conflict/

The Pa;estinian homes in East Jerusalem, that were the initial excuse for this fighting, were stolen from Jews that owned the homes for decades and fled from a Jordanian invasion. The one Jewish family that stayed were murdered. For all the claims of a Right to Return it doesn't apply to Jews reclaiming their homes to the rest of the world.

To the claim of Palestinian genocide, the PLO and its offshoot in Hamas still have still not fulfilled their part of theOslo Accords to renounce their charter policy of the utter destruction of Jews in Israel by driving them into the sea. Even though they have failed, they still keep trying.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#43 Post by flash2015 » Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 am

Seriously? Do Palestinian's have the same rights to lost homes from 70 years ago?

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#44 Post by flash2015 » Tue May 18, 2021 1:50 am

Even the Jerusalem Post is sympathetic to their plight:

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conf ... mes-668140

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#45 Post by Matticus13 » Tue May 18, 2021 2:24 am

Lots of those slamming Israel for war crimes have apparently forgotten targeting civilian populations is a war crime as well. Hamas does this regularly. They even manage to intentionally fire the rockets within their own cities, increasing the likelihood of collateral damage.

Israel isn't without blame. Illegal settlement/evictions and general heavy-handed nature of the current right-wing government don't go over well with Palestinians...

flash2015 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 am
Seriously? Do Palestinian's have the same rights to lost homes from 70 years ago?
While tragic, no. It'd be great if both sides vote out the hardliners and start working on a viable solution. Seems impossible... Sigh. The two state solution hasn't ever been close.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#46 Post by Randomizer » Tue May 18, 2021 3:08 am

flash2015 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 am
Seriously? Do Palestinian's have the same rights to lost homes from 70 years ago?
Well if you say Palestinian squatters given homes by Jordanian conquerors from their Jewish owners is legal. Then Israel which conquered East Jerusalem in 1967 and annexed it would have the same legal rights to return the homes to their original owners.

Palestinians are demanding the right of return without giving back homes that Jews lost in 22 Arab and Muslim countries that they fled.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#47 Post by flash2015 » Tue May 18, 2021 3:44 am

Blinken says no evidence that Hamas was working in the Gaza media building:

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/blinken ... -1.9815458

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#48 Post by flash2015 » Tue May 18, 2021 4:09 am

Randomizer wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 3:08 am
flash2015 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 am
Seriously? Do Palestinian's have the same rights to lost homes from 70 years ago?
Well if you say Palestinian squatters given homes by Jordanian conquerors from their Jewish owners is legal. Then Israel which conquered East Jerusalem in 1967 and annexed it would have the same legal rights to return the homes to their original owners.

Palestinians are demanding the right of return without giving back homes that Jews lost in 22 Arab and Muslim countries that they fled.
I am sorry, but you either take all the claims or none of them. Lots of land changed hand in 1947, many of those living in the area had land in what is now Israel. You go with the facts on the ground now, not selectively choose the facts you like.

What do Palestinians have to do with the other 22 Arab countries? Take it up with the relevant countries. It is completely irrelevant to the Palestinians.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#49 Post by flash2015 » Tue May 18, 2021 4:19 am

And we aren't even mentioning how easy it is for Palestinians to lose residency rights to East Jerusalem. The goal being of course to gradually remove them from the area.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#50 Post by Matticus13 » Tue May 18, 2021 5:00 am

flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:43 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 9:02 pm
To put it another way, Flash, the rockets from Gaza are a desperate response from a people who have been kicked and beaten and abused and starved and murdered and imprisoned by a force of zealous settler colonists over the last several decades. Gaza is a prison camp and the Israelis have been carrying out a long and painful campaign of genocide against the people forced to live in it.
I understand what you are saying...but the Palestinians can't win this militarily. They just can't....and I don't see anything changing in the near future that will change that. With walls, checkpoints and the Iron Dome, Israel is largely immune from almost anything the Palestinians could potentially do. And the Palestinian position continues to get weaker as former allies normalize relations with Israel.

Ultimately it is a propaganda war the Palestinians need to win and they have been getting their asses whipped in this area for at least the past two decades (Osama Bin Laden and the war on terror was the gift that kept on giving). Israelis know how important the propaganda war is, they even had game shows where the winner was the person that could best present Israel in a positive light (e.g. the Ambassador).

The rocket attack continued to hurt the Palestinians in the propaganda war...especially since the Israelis can show on the evening news rockets going into residential areas (even though in reality little damage actually occurs). The propaganda war is not only in the international community, but in Israel itself. Not everyone in Israel is an extremist like Netanyahu and his allies. There are people in Israel that would be genuinely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Lots and lots of lefties are Jewish.

The Palestinians of course need to be realistic about this. Israel is not going away. They can't continue to insist that their goal is that Israel disappears. I understand there are Israelis that believe that they should have total control over the area too. They need to make them the extremists though. They need to be the reasonable ones.
Exactly. I would like to suggest to the Palestinians an outside of the box approach... Palestinians should push for annexation in exchange for Israeli citizenship. And by Israeli citizenship, they are to be viewed as equals in property/residency disputes, human rights, and so on.

If Israel balks at the idea and continues with aggressive settlement policies, international sentiment will shift. If Palestinians don't shoot back (or first, however you see it), it becomes exclusively an ethnic cleansing/invasion. The right-wingers lose the "high ground." I don't think they could keep it up. There would be immense pressure at home and abroad to make peace.

If Israel accepts the idea, it's a win for Palestinians as well. On the condition of full citizenship/rights, the quality of life *should* go up. Adding millions of Palestinians to the voter rolls would give them a significant bloc of legislators within the government. It would help minimize the damage the Israeli right-wing currently inflicts on those of Arab/Palestinian decent.

The single state solution surely would have it's hiccups, and definitely seems like a non-starter for this generation of Palestinians. But, really... Is there a better (feasible) option? The two state solution has never been a viable option. The demands on both sides have been unreasonable (on purpose).
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#51 Post by Matticus13 » Tue May 18, 2021 5:03 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 5:00 am
flash2015 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:43 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 9:02 pm
To put it another way, Flash, the rockets from Gaza are a desperate response from a people who have been kicked and beaten and abused and starved and murdered and imprisoned by a force of zealous settler colonists over the last several decades. Gaza is a prison camp and the Israelis have been carrying out a long and painful campaign of genocide against the people forced to live in it.
I understand what you are saying...but the Palestinians can't win this militarily. They just can't....and I don't see anything changing in the near future that will change that. With walls, checkpoints and the Iron Dome, Israel is largely immune from almost anything the Palestinians could potentially do. And the Palestinian position continues to get weaker as former allies normalize relations with Israel.

Ultimately it is a propaganda war the Palestinians need to win and they have been getting their asses whipped in this area for at least the past two decades (Osama Bin Laden and the war on terror was the gift that kept on giving). Israelis know how important the propaganda war is, they even had game shows where the winner was the person that could best present Israel in a positive light (e.g. the Ambassador).

The rocket attack continued to hurt the Palestinians in the propaganda war...especially since the Israelis can show on the evening news rockets going into residential areas (even though in reality little damage actually occurs). The propaganda war is not only in the international community, but in Israel itself. Not everyone in Israel is an extremist like Netanyahu and his allies. There are people in Israel that would be genuinely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Lots and lots of lefties are Jewish.

The Palestinians of course need to be realistic about this. Israel is not going away. They can't continue to insist that their goal is that Israel disappears. I understand there are Israelis that believe that they should have total control over the area too. They need to make them the extremists though. They need to be the reasonable ones.
Exactly. I would like to suggest to the Palestinians an outside of the box approach... Palestinians should push for annexation in exchange for Israeli citizenship. And by Israeli citizenship, they are to be viewed as equals in property/residency disputes, human rights, and so on.

If Israel balks at the idea and continues with aggressive settlement policies, international sentiment will shift. If Palestinians don't shoot back (or first, however you see it), it becomes exclusively an ethnic cleansing/invasion. The right-wingers lose the "high ground." I don't think they could keep it up. There would be immense pressure at home and abroad to make peace.

If Israel accepts the idea, it's a win for Palestinians as well. On the condition of full citizenship/rights, the quality of life *should* go up. Adding hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to the voter rolls would give them a significant bloc of legislators within the government. It would help minimize the damage the Israeli right-wing currently inflicts on those of Arab/Palestinian decent.

The single state solution surely would have it's hiccups, and definitely seems like a non-starter for this generation of Palestinians. But, really... Is there a better (feasible) option? The two state solution has never been a viable option. The demands on both sides have been unreasonable (on purpose).

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#52 Post by Octavious » Tue May 18, 2021 6:05 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 5:00 am
The single state solution surely would have it's hiccups, and definitely seems like a non-starter for this generation of Palestinians. But, really... Is there a better (feasible) option? The two state solution has never been a viable option. The demands on both sides have been unreasonable (on purpose).
The single state solution is a non starter as with it comes the inevitably of the Jewish population of Israel becoming the minority, and the history of Jewish minorities is not a happy one. And, as you say, the two state solution has never been close.

The only practicable solution I can see is compensated resettlement. The population of Gaza and the West Bank is not huge. We're talking fewer than 5 million people. The Gaza Strip is approximately 2 of those millions. Assuming a home for every 4 people and to rehouse them will require 500,000 homes. At Egyptian prices we're talking around a cost of 10 billion dollars. Provide every man, woman and child with education or training and a basic living allowance for 5 years to allow easy integration into Egypt, and you can treble this figure. Provide Egypt a financial incentive to take this population so that they can sell the idea to Egyptians as a great deal for Egypt that will create jobs and inject much needed cash into public services, and the lot can be achieved for under 100 billion. Do the same for the West Bank and Jordan and the grand total comes in at under a quarter of a trillion dollars.

The Iraq war, by way of contrast, cost around 2 trillion dollars. So Israel and Palestine can be resolved forever for a small fraction of this cost.

It will never happen, of course, as Israel itself can't afford it and the US finds it far easier to spend vast sums of money on war rather than peace when taking about foreign lands, as do all nations. Especially when the opposition to the idea can scream ethnic cleansing to try and kill it off, regardless of whether or not the Palestinians might actually prefer a fresh start and hope to a future of perpetual war and poverty. Still, it's just a thought.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#53 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 18, 2021 8:56 am

Octavious wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:42 pm
The Gaza contingent? Keep their heads down as much as possible until the latest nonsense blows itself out, and vote in anyone but Hamas in the next elections. Assuming that the Palestinian powers that be allow elections. It was looking pretty dodgy even before the trouble.
They had a more moderate Palestinian administration for several decades and still Israel imprisoned, starved, abused and murdered them on a regular basis.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#54 Post by Octavious » Tue May 18, 2021 9:48 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:56 am
Octavious wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:42 pm
The Gaza contingent? Keep their heads down as much as possible until the latest nonsense blows itself out, and vote in anyone but Hamas in the next elections. Assuming that the Palestinian powers that be allow elections. It was looking pretty dodgy even before the trouble.
They had a more moderate Palestinian administration for several decades and still Israel imprisoned, starved, abused and murdered them on a regular basis.
Those points are very much debatable. What is considerably less debatable is that the current state of affairs is substantially worse.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#55 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 18, 2021 12:04 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:48 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:56 am
Octavious wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:42 pm
The Gaza contingent? Keep their heads down as much as possible until the latest nonsense blows itself out, and vote in anyone but Hamas in the next elections. Assuming that the Palestinian powers that be allow elections. It was looking pretty dodgy even before the trouble.
They had a more moderate Palestinian administration for several decades and still Israel imprisoned, starved, abused and murdered them on a regular basis.
Those points are very much debatable. What is considerably less debatable is that the current state of affairs is substantially worse.
Yes, it is getting worse, because after four years of extreme pro-settler colonialist bias from Trump, followed up by dithering and inaction from Biden, Israel is is now emboldened to the extent that they feel they can massacre Palestinians indiscriminately and without even the facade of restraint, and nobody will hold them to account. Which is exactly what we are seeing.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#56 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 18, 2021 12:09 pm

But clearly the United States wants this to happen, because they continue to provide Israel with billions of dollars' worth of military equipment and assistance every year. This is genocide being carried out using US-supplied weapons, by Israeli troops trained and advised by the US.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#57 Post by Octavious » Tue May 18, 2021 1:35 pm

Yes, the status quo works well enough for the US. The domestic audience always appreciates a President calling for peace on the world stage, and there's a guaranteed success of sorts at some point in the future when Hamas run out of rockets. I'm not sure whether the sale of military equipment is as important as you like to imagine, but certainly the opportunity to develop and test missile defence systems has been invaluable.

And the leaders of Israel and Hamas get to exercise their strong man image. It's damned hard to get elected as a strong man when there's no obvious need for them, but when there are regular wars the opportunities are endless. Everybody wins. Well, everybody with power at least. One wonders if the leaders of Hamas use this to kill off unwanted rivals. A careless leak here and an air strike does great things for your career plans there. A polite request to the Israelis to fire a missile at your home when you're out to give the impression that you're a target too, and everything's just peachy.
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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#58 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:35 pm
Yes, the status quo works well enough for the US. The domestic audience always appreciates a President calling for peace on the world stage, and there's a guaranteed success of sorts at some point in the future when Hamas run out of rockets. I'm not sure whether the sale of military equipment is as important as you like to imagine, but certainly the opportunity to develop and test missile defence systems has been invaluable.
Not even talking about arms sales.

The US gifts Billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel every year, described as "military aid".

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#59 Post by orathaic » Tue May 18, 2021 6:26 pm

The Iraq war, by way of contrast, cost around 2 trillion dollars. So Israel and Palestine can be resolved forever for a small fraction of this cost.
Just for my curiosity, how much of this federal spending (and I am assuming it all came from US tax payers via the federal government) went back to US companies, either developing and selling weapons, construction companies rebuilding what was blown up, or private security (ie mercenaries, likely mostly made of ex-US military personnel).

Similar comments regarding military aid to Israel may not apply (as they manufacture a lot of their own weapons), but I'm fairly sure some of it does go back to US jobs in the military-industrial complex.

Which would not be the case for several billion given to Palestinians being relocated.

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Re: Meanwhile another Palestinian Genocide brought to you by Israeli Fascists

#60 Post by orathaic » Tue May 18, 2021 6:28 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm

Not even talking about arms sales.

The US gifts Billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel every year, described as "military aid".
Ie the US tax payer gifts money to Israel on condition that they buy US weapons which supports profits (and arguably jobs) in a wide variety of US states.

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