USA starts a trade war with allies

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Octavious
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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#61 Post by Octavious » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:57 pm

You genuinely think so? I've seen no evidence whatsoever that he is mentally ill.

I dare say many leaders find his style somewhat irritating, but it's only unusual from a Western perspective. If you look at national leaders more globally Trump is far less of an outlier. Hell, even in the EU now there are a growing number of leaders who are rather admiring of Trump, with the future Italian Premier likely to be one of them. A lot of the time when Trumps actions are described as unstable, what they really mean is "America is doing stuff we don't want them to do".

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#62 Post by peterlund » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:37 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:57 pm
You genuinely think so? I've seen no evidence whatsoever that he is mentally ill.
Just the simple fact that we are here more than a year after his election and seriously discussing this topic the "mental health" of this shithead tells A LOT. When did we last have this kind of discussion about an American President?

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#63 Post by Randomizer » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:39 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:57 pm
You genuinely think so? I've seen no evidence whatsoever that he is mentally ill.
There are plenty of recorded episodes where Trump is having visual hallucinations where he claims to see things that aren't there. From blood pouring down a woman's face that event photographs show didn't happen to Muslims in New Jersey cheering 9/11.

We can probably pass off all the claims of never meeting people he's been photographed shaking hands with them as memory lapses. Same with he didn't say things that have been recorded like his interview with Bush about groping women.
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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#64 Post by Octavious » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm

peterlund wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:37 pm
Octavious wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:57 pm
You genuinely think so? I've seen no evidence whatsoever that he is mentally ill.
Just the simple fact that we are here more than a year after his election and seriously discussing this topic the "mental health" of this shithead tells A LOT. When did we last have this kind of discussion about an American President?
Peter, you say Americans are crazy at least a dozen times a day ;).

It's just a load of opposition crap. Just like Obama and the birth certificate nonsense.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#65 Post by Jeff Kuta » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:18 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm
It's just a load of opposition crap. Just like Obama and the birth certificate nonsense.
It's not a load of opposition crap.

Trump is breaking records for most staffers to bail on his administration. He cannot work well with most other people. He is an extremely toxic and unstable narcissistic sociopath, especially toward those who are close to him but not family.

There are many, MANY instances of Trump not being able to distinguish reality from his megalomaniacal fantasy world. Even his most trusted enablers eventually cannot stand him.

Republicans hate the shit he pulls. Dismissing the facts as 'opposition research' undermines your own credibility.
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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#66 Post by peterlund » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:11 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm
It's just a load of opposition crap. Just like Obama and the birth certificate nonsense.
Sad to see a young guy copying troll what-about-ism arguments in this disillusioned manner. I guess the origin of this what-about-ism is the wide-spread disinformation spread by the nuts on the far right.
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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#67 Post by Octavious » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:25 pm

peterlund wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:11 pm
Sad to see a young guy copying troll what-about-ism arguments in this disillusioned manner. I guess the origin of this what-about-ism is the wide-spread disinformation spread by the nuts on the far right.
Sad to see someone from a supposedly enlightened part of the world using mental illness as a tool to attack politicians he disagrees with. You also don't seem to understand what whataboutism actually is.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#68 Post by Incrementalist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:07 am

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:39 pm

There are plenty of recorded episodes where Trump is having visual hallucinations where he claims to see things that aren't there. From blood pouring down a woman's face that event photographs show didn't happen to Muslims in New Jersey cheering 9/11.

We can probably pass off all the claims of never meeting people he's been photographed shaking hands with them as memory lapses. Same with he didn't say things that have been recorded like his interview with Bush about groping women.
Taking Trump's obvious lies at face value in order to support the argument that he has lost touch with reality muddies the waters.

He might have some kind of "personality disorder", but it doesn't make sense to assume any of his "whoppers" reflect his genuine beliefs about the world.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#69 Post by Jeff Kuta » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:57 am

Incrementalist wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:07 am
...it doesn't make sense to assume any of his "whoppers" reflect his genuine beliefs about the world.
How can you assume anything about 45? He lies when it suits him or when he's ignorant on an issue.

For someone who by his own word values loyalty above all else, he certainly doesn't feel any reason to return the favor.

As for "whoppers", yeah, we know what kind of person likes to tell The Big Lie.
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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#70 Post by peterlund » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:26 am

Octavious wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:25 pm
Sad to see someone from a supposedly enlightened part of the world using mental illness as a tool to attack politicians he disagrees with. You also don't seem to understand what whataboutism actually is.
Actually I did not say anything about the shithead's mental state. I only referred to the fact that we still are discussing this topic.

You however, did compare the "mental state" discussion with the "birth certificate" discussion. I have to say that I would be a lot more alarmed in case there was a "mental" problem compared to if there was a "certificate" problem. I see much more reasons to investigate the "mental" issue in details as the survival of the World depends on it. You did compare a hen with a feather. And that is one aspect of what-about-ism that you applied in this discussion.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#71 Post by peterlund » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 am

Btw, the shithead wants a trade war. :/ Good luck when EU retaliates with tariffs on lots of goods produced in the USA. How many American jobs will be lost then for some few inefficient steel and aluminum workers? You will loose much more than you gain. We'll see each other again when we both are back in the stone age. My friend from Uni our EU Commissioner on Trade Cecilia Malmström is doing a great job putting together an appropriate response for you...

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#72 Post by Octavious » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:51 am

Peter, old chap, pointing out that it's something of a new normal this millennium for Presidents to be followed around by non-issues that, if true, would end their Presidency is not whataboutism. It is a sad reflection on the state of American democracy that this nonsense exists, but that's as far as it goes. That you would not be alarmed if there was a certificate problem shows that you didn't understand it. If it were true, which it obviously wasn't, Obama would have been out. You may argue that it is a rather stupid rule that would lead to this, and I would agree, but that isn't important.

You have a rather inflated opinion of EU strength and unity, I have to say. In the east a somewhat alarming block of nationalists and populists who are more Trump than Trump has gained ascendancy. Of the big four western economies that have traditionally provided leadership, the UK is leaving, Germany is at a political weak point, Italy has fallen to a mix of right wing populism, and France (whilst looking strong) is untested. If your Cecilia genuinely believes Trump wants a trade war she is dancing to his tune.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#73 Post by Jeff Kuta » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:33 pm

Trump: “Trade wars are good and easy to win.”

Is he telling the truth or lying?
Can anyone believe a word he says?
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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#74 Post by ksako8 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:58 pm

I think the EU is showing the UK is can be very firm, strict and united.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#75 Post by Incrementalist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:59 am

Jeff Kuta wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:33 pm
Trump: “Trade wars are good and easy to win.”

Is he telling the truth or lying?
Can anyone believe a word he says?
It's a baseless assertion, meant to "trigger" his political adversaries, who will in turn write countless articles to refute it, keeping Trump in the press.

It's how he operated during the campaign, and he seems to have started his 2020 campaign already.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#76 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:17 am

Jeff Kuta wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:39 pm
I don't believe that is true either. I think there are plenty of world leaders who must be worried about Trump's mental health, some of whom believe he is irrational and unstable. They cannot say that publicly, but they absolutely have to craft their diplomacy around that possibility.
Let's have a look at what world leaders actually say about Trump...

Putin:
"On a purely human level, he made a very good impression on me," Putin said. "It seems to me that he is well-balanced. For all the shock value of his behavior, something to which, apparently, he was used to because of his previous life experience and activity, when we got down to business, he gets into problems. He communicates. He listens to his interlocutor. You can negotiate with him, I see, you can look for some compromises with him."

Matteo Salvini (leader of the largest party in Italy's centre right coalition)
“I would like to meet Donald Trump and shake his hand,” Salvini told his supporters. “He is a heroic and colourful person and we are on the same wavelength when it comes to many things,”

Viktor Orban (Prime Minister of Hungary on Trump's inauguration speech)
"A great thing, a great freedom and a great gift. We have received permission from, if you like, the highest position in the world so we can now also put ourselves in first place"

You could claim that they are lying for diplomatic purposes, and add other global Trump fans such as Abe of Japan, the Polish, the Israelis etc etc to that list, but the fact of the matter is that the world is full of leaders who genuinely like Trump, who genuinely respect Trump, and who don't for a moment follow the mentally unstable philosophy that exists only in the more excitable media of the US and its more traditional western European allies.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#77 Post by Randomizer » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:25 pm

Unless you lead North Korea, you are careful what you say about the crazed leader of a major country. North Korea is about to get Trump to acknowledge that it's a major power with its nuclear missiles and get him to meet.

This proves Libya was wrong to give up its nuclear program since the leader lost power there.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#78 Post by Telamor » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:51 pm

To be fair Octavious your list of candidates there is pretty damnimg in and of itself. Victor Orban, the European Erdogan; Matteo Salvini, Musselini V. 2.0; and Putin the great dictator himself. They say you can judge a person by the company they keep and Trumps closest supporters are busily undermining democracy in their own countries. It doesn't bode well.

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#79 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:54 pm

It is perhaps more damning of Europe than of Trump. These are pretty major European figures in pretty major European countries. Whether you like it or not, Trump is only an outlier if viewed from the relatively tiny perspective of North Western Europe and UKUSA community.

When you look more globally, you see Duterte of the Philippines, Modi of India, Erdogan (as you say) of Turkey, Putin of Russia, and Trump of America all of a similar type. Sadly this type is what the majority of citizens in a democracy experience as a leader.

Hell, even from the perspective of a diplomacy board, Trump type leaders are in power in over half the nations :p

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Re: USA starts a trade war with allies

#80 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:55 pm

Sorry, Randomizer. I would answer but I seriously have no idea when you're joking or not.

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