Can someone explain communism to me

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flash2015
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#41 Post by flash2015 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:19 pm

yavuzovic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:50 pm
Perpetuating a system that allows a small minority to sequester and hoard vast wealth at the expense of the majority is not the best way to ensure all of society's children are provided for. Yet that is what you advocate.
I agreed with your earlier post about people who made their fortunes on immoral ways to gain money but you don't support clean money to be inherited as well. Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
Money on its own is essentially worthless. It is just a medium of exchange. All that would happen if you burnt your money would be to make the money remaining in circulation slightly more valuable.
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#42 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:21 pm

yavuzovic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:50 pm
Perpetuating a system that allows a small minority to sequester and hoard vast wealth at the expense of the majority is not the best way to ensure all of society's children are provided for. Yet that is what you advocate.
I agreed with your earlier post about people who made their fortunes on immoral ways to gain money but you don't support clean money to be inherited as well. Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
So if you can't get your way, you'd rather destroy things than help society. That's not a very moral position if you ask me.
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orathaic
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#43 Post by orathaic » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:55 pm

orathaic I meant something completely different with that and actually I don't think people have the right to live the way they want if its in expense for others work.
So would you prefer to live in a world where a majority of people work for starvation wages and a (very) small minority own the automatic machines which do most of the value generating labour?

Without some change in our economic system, that is where we are headed. Though that is not to say the massive accumulated wealth in the hands of a small few is a good thing on its own (mostly capital, land, and now intellectual property. as an example Disney has figured out how to commodify the stories of our culture(s)... But also other have taken control of software ideas, which will be determining how we live, how much insurance will cost us, or whether a bank will give us a loan).

Also 'live the way you like' - really depends on how you like. Basic income requires at a minimum shelter, food, and water. Some of those things are freely piped into our all houses by default (paid for by someone else's labour).

Beyond that we need security, education (ideas&culture), and healthcare.
Two of these are already free at point of use, though a standing army and police force provides security for the wealthy and protects their property, rather than for everyone and standards of education are rather varied... But after security, education and water are paid for by someone else, why not also include money for food and shelter? Having the state provide these basic services (education, water, and shelter) while you give people money to spend as they like (for food)leaves a very basic standard of living, not necessarily what I would call 'the way you like to live'; it means nobody starves (they either have access to a kitchen and money to buy groceries, or more money to eat at a restaurant/hotel...I know which one costs less).

Healthcare and security I will leave for now, but if you don't believe people deserveto eat, just like they get freely available tap water, then I somehow doubt we will agree on healthcare.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#44 Post by orathaic » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:56 pm

Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
You leave your family a society which will protect their basic needs...
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#45 Post by orathaic » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:00 pm

You can actually think of taxation as a money sink - removing money from the system.

You could burn all your tax dollars if it was cheaper than transferring them to the state, while the state then reprints new dollars to redistribute the same amount to whatever social programmes it needs.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#46 Post by Octavious » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:05 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:21 pm
yavuzovic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:50 pm
Perpetuating a system that allows a small minority to sequester and hoard vast wealth at the expense of the majority is not the best way to ensure all of society's children are provided for. Yet that is what you advocate.
I agreed with your earlier post about people who made their fortunes on immoral ways to gain money but you don't support clean money to be inherited as well. Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
So if you can't get your way, you'd rather destroy things than help society. That's not a very moral position if you ask me.
If those who rule had allowed the system to degenerate to the extent that it can only function by robbing families at the moment of bereavement then the system needs to be overthrown rather than helped. Fortunately your ideal will never happen as the vast majority find it repulsive.

The fundamental problem with communist ideology is that it only functions when everyone's a communist. In a capitalist society a communist is perfectly at liberty to leave all their wealth to the state or to charity or whatever. In a communist society a capitalist minded person is forced to submit to the ideology of the state.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#47 Post by flash2015 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:36 pm

It is weird that we are having such absolutist arguments - no inheritance allowed or "taxation is theft". There is a continuum of options between these two extremes.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#48 Post by Octavious » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:12 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:36 pm
It is weird that we are having such absolutist arguments - no inheritance allowed or "taxation is theft". There is a continuum of options between these two extremes.
Is your imagination on overdrive again, flash? Who is arguing taxation is theft?

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#49 Post by flash2015 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:27 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:12 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:36 pm
It is weird that we are having such absolutist arguments - no inheritance allowed or "taxation is theft". There is a continuum of options between these two extremes.
Is your imagination on overdrive again, flash? Who is arguing taxation is theft?
Perhaps you need to check your account security then. Are you saying this isn't you?
Octavious wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:05 pm
If those who rule had allowed the system to degenerate to the extent that it can only function by robbing families at the moment of bereavement then the system needs to be overthrown rather than helped.
You are suggesting that taxes on inheritance are "robbing families". Sounds like "taxation is theft" to me.
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#50 Post by Octavious » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm

It is quite obviously a comment on Jamie's zero inheritance tax idea. In order for something to "degenerate" it has to get worse, and there is currently in existence an inheritance tax pretty much everywhere. You can't degenerate to the status quo :razz:.

But even if you've had a few drinks and, in your mentally reduced state, get yourself confused about my view on inheritance tax, it is still a hell of a jump to extrapolate that confusion to all taxation. Even for you that's crazy ;)

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#51 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 01, 2021 10:36 am

Octavious wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
It is quite obviously a comment on Jamie's zero inheritance tax idea. In order for something to "degenerate" it has to get worse, and there is currently in existence an inheritance tax pretty much everywhere. You can't degenerate to the status quo :razz:.

But even if you've had a few drinks and, in your mentally reduced state, get yourself confused about my view on inheritance tax, it is still a hell of a jump to extrapolate that confusion to all taxation. Even for you that's crazy ;)
I never said that.

Thanks for making up a straw man.

As it happens I think that the inheritance tax threshold should be lowered to about £150,000 (I think it's currently £325k in the UK) and above that threshold a rate of about 75% should apply (rather than the 40% that currently does).

So I'm not actually quite as absolutist about it as you alleged.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#52 Post by Octavious » Sat May 01, 2021 11:03 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:03 pm
Octavious wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:27 pm
Perhaps I misunderstood. Are you in favour of inheritance then?
Absolutely not, no.
That's the non absolutist version of absolutely not, I take it? :-)

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#53 Post by yavuzovic » Sat May 01, 2021 11:10 am

flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:19 pm
yavuzovic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:50 pm
Perpetuating a system that allows a small minority to sequester and hoard vast wealth at the expense of the majority is not the best way to ensure all of society's children are provided for. Yet that is what you advocate.
I agreed with your earlier post about people who made their fortunes on immoral ways to gain money but you don't support clean money to be inherited as well. Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
Money on its own is essentially worthless. It is just a medium of exchange. All that would happen if you burnt your money would be to make the money remaining in circulation slightly more valuable.
You know what I meant. I would probably waste it for the least needed luxuries.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#54 Post by yavuzovic » Sat May 01, 2021 11:13 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:21 pm
yavuzovic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:50 pm
Perpetuating a system that allows a small minority to sequester and hoard vast wealth at the expense of the majority is not the best way to ensure all of society's children are provided for. Yet that is what you advocate.
I agreed with your earlier post about people who made their fortunes on immoral ways to gain money but you don't support clean money to be inherited as well. Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
So if you can't get your way, you'd rather destroy things than help society. That's not a very moral position if you ask me.
Stealing what I brought together isn't a very moral position too. I'm not society's guy, I exist for those I love and it's not a big group of people. The society shouldn't expect my services, I'm with them because I think it offers more than living in the wild. I'm not a sacrificial sheep and I will pack my bags when the society wants more than it gives.
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#55 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 01, 2021 11:26 am

yavuzovic wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:13 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:21 pm
yavuzovic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:13 pm


I agreed with your earlier post about people who made their fortunes on immoral ways to gain money but you don't support clean money to be inherited as well. Sorry but I would rather burn my money than leave it to society if I can't keep anything for my family or those I love.
So if you can't get your way, you'd rather destroy things than help society. That's not a very moral position if you ask me.
Stealing what I brought together isn't a very moral position too. I'm not society's guy, I exist for those I love and it's not a big group of people. The society shouldn't expect my services, I'm with them because I think it offers more than living in the wild. I'm not a sacrificial sheep and I will pack my bags when the society wants more than it gives.
We are all part of society.
Your attitude is very selfish.
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#56 Post by Octavious » Sat May 01, 2021 11:39 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:26 am
We are all part of society.
Your attitude is very selfish.
The difference between the positions being that the society yavuzovic wants to be, and is, a part of is one of mutual benefit combined with the freedom to live largely as you wish, whereas the society you want is one in which everyone is forced to live by the particular set of rules you happen to believe are right.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#57 Post by yavuzovic » Sat May 01, 2021 11:41 am

I'm not saying that taxation is theft, and I'm not saying there should be no taxation on inheritance. I'm just telling you the more people are motivated when the less government provides for them. In a fully communist system, you don't have to work, you just need to look like working. I can agree with orathaic about a basic healthcare system, but its main purpose should be giving people a chance rather than keeping them alive. I can also agree some very basic services for the poorest, so they also have a chance.

Also the less government does, the better. All services must be privatised and basic service should be funded by government, not provided. Every time I see government doing something, it's worse than its private alternative.
orathaic wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:55 pm
orathaic I meant something completely different with that and actually I don't think people have the right to live the way they want if its in expense for others work.
So would you prefer to live in a world where a majority of people work for starvation wages and a (very) small minority own the automatic machines which do most of the value generating labour?

Without some change in our economic system, that is where we are headed. Though that is not to say the massive accumulated wealth in the hands of a small few is a good thing on its own (mostly capital, land, and now intellectual property. as an example Disney has figured out how to commodify the stories of our culture(s)... But also other have taken control of software ideas, which will be determining how we live, how much insurance will cost us, or whether a bank will give us a loan).
I might agree but it is also their right. You can produce and declare that your production is for common use without any interest but people have the right to demand something for their works. Stories of our cultures, in your example, should be of common use but the movies are branded and it's Disney's right to use them the way it wants. Other than things that are so simple, people can use their democratic power to protect things that belong to everyone (national parks, forests, historical places...). I'm not something like anarcho-capitalist. I just want government to do less work because that creates a gap where money is lost. Even with zero corruption, we lose sources to the "deadweight loss".
Also 'live the way you like' - really depends on how you like. Basic income requires at a minimum shelter, food, and water. Some of those things are freely piped into our all houses by default (paid for by someone else's labour).
I agree with this if these services are aimed to keep people barely alive and give them a chance. Basic services exist to give everyone a chamce in the life, not to comfort them. It should be the worse of everything so people are encouraged to work.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#58 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 01, 2021 5:22 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:39 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:26 am
We are all part of society.
Your attitude is very selfish.
The difference between the positions being that the society yavuzovic wants to be, and is, a part of is one of mutual benefit combined with the freedom to live largely as you wish, whereas the society you want is one in which everyone is forced to live by the particular set of rules you happen to believe are right.
That is not true. Both of us are advocating for a rules based system. We are disagreeing about what the rules should be.
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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#59 Post by orathaic » Sat May 01, 2021 11:48 pm

yavuzovic wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:41 am
I agree with this if these services are aimed to keep people barely alive and give them a chance. Basic services exist to give everyone a chamce in the life, not to comfort them. It should be the worse of everything so people are encouraged to work.
Then we're not so far apart, we kinda agree on the Basic part of Universal Basic Income (I mean you can turn it into government run services provided instead of cash to people for them to spend on whatever services the market has to offer, but I think we both lean away from that sort of approach - I mean, that is how education mostly works for primary and secondary levels... )

We may not agree on the Universal bit, yet. I think the US does this weird thing where the poorest (and seperately oldest) get basic healthcare (medicare and medicaid), and it is some of the most cost effective, but i think it should be universal... How and ever, usually when I look at an issue like this I think of it in terms of Dole payments currently in existence in Ireland (similar to the UK I think).

There is a big psychological block to going on the dole for the first time (unless you grew up watching your parents on the dole... But the issue remains) it makes you feel like you have failed in some sense. Which does tends to lead to less success. Especially as the social welfare department tend to treat you like a failure... I think this is worse for people who grew up watching their parents on the dole. They are even more treated like failures and even less likely to ever work.

If it was Universal (and current tax credits were adjusted so those on higher incomes paid more tax, but got a basic income back from the state equal to the extra bit of taxation) then nobody would feel like a failure for this. Anyone could quit a horrible job and know they would be able to afford the basics (let's say healthcare, food, and shelter) and trial of a universal basic income (admittedly in rural India) demonstrated this freedom allowed more innovation (because rural farmers didn't have to rely on their crop to survive, they could take risks, and grow something to make more money - and if it failed their family survived on the basic income...

I imagine this kind of innovation would be rather wide spread. Imagine quitting your dead end burger flipping job and working on a music career, knowing you can just focus on the art while surviving on your basic income... And a lot of people claim there would be no incentive to work, but even where we have dole payments some recipients work for cash (and don't declare it or pay tax - because they would love their dole payment if the state knew they were working) because there is always an incentive to do something (and the money, but this happens even when they risk the state finding out...).

But generally I think removing the psychological message thattthe state sends of 'you are a loser and thus need money', by making any such payment universal, would really help with some people's attitude.

And look some people would volunteer instead of doing paid work (I currently do just that, but only one evening a week) whether that sporting activities, or art or anything else. There are huge social gains to be made.

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Re: Can someone explain communism to me

#60 Post by orathaic » Sun May 02, 2021 12:02 am

I feel like talking about water, and flint michigan's terrible example is worth looking at.

Obviously it is a basic need. And clearly private companies can provide 'luxury' bottled water, while city authorities can utterly fail to deliver drinkable water to houses. Due to the infrastructure limitations, it isn't feasible for several competing private entities to pipe water into everyone's home; and I don't see much advantage of privatising pu lic utilities like this... But also the Flint example of the utter failure of local authorities to maintain water supply is pretty horrific.

So I'm not sure what the ideal solution is. For electricy markets, you can have competing companies renting the same infrastructure, and paying the monopoly infrastructure owner for the privilege (in the case of this being the state, then the general public could benefit while actual usage is paid for to the company generating the power...). I see this as a smart solution to provide a public service and facilitate market competition.

But I don't see how to do this with a water supply. And for such a basic need, I think we should expect potable water supplies for everyone.

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