Free Navalny!

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orathaic
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Re: Free Navalny!

#21 Post by orathaic » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:22 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:57 am
Is this some new definition of imperialism that I'm not aware of?
You seem pretty clear in advocating for US imperial action in Iran.

I don't know what you want to call it...but that is what it is.

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Re: Free Navalny!

#22 Post by Octavious » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:08 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:22 pm
Octavious wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:57 am
Is this some new definition of imperialism that I'm not aware of?
You seem pretty clear in advocating for US imperial action in Iran.

I don't know what you want to call it...but that is what it is.
Firstly I didn't call for US to do anything, secondly at no stage did anyone other than you mention action in Iran. Aside from that you're spot on.
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Re: Free Navalny!

#23 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:12 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:22 pm
Octavious wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:57 am
Is this some new definition of imperialism that I'm not aware of?
You seem pretty clear in advocating for US imperial action in Iran.

I don't know what you want to call it...but that is what it is.
I hate to take Octavious's side here, but nowhere in this thread have I seen him advocate for US action against Iran. I think you've made a mistake.
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Re: Free Navalny!

#24 Post by orathaic » Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:06 pm

By whom, out of interest? Biden has adopted Trump's America First foreign policy with levels of enthusiasm bordering on the obscene, and Europe has been too feeble to attempt all but the most modest foreign adventures without American support for over half a century.
The entire context of this quote is Imperialist. The unspoken assumption is that only Imperial powers can intervene and... You know what, i'm not bothered explaining any further.

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Re: Free Navalny!

#25 Post by Octavious » Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:07 pm

The explanation is far more simple, and is purely about your own prejudice. You have built up a somewhat inaccurate impression of me, and you create your own reality in order to feed that impression. That it is blatantly obvious to any impartial or fair minded observer that this reality is bollocks apparently no longer bothers you.

You can't even explain your own logic because deep down you know it doesn't hold water, so have developed a "I'm not bothered" deflection mechanism to avoid it
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Re: Free Navalny!

#26 Post by Octavious » Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:22 pm

For the record, I happen to think that any Western military intervention into Iran without a clear and obvious reason (Iran invading its neighbours or launching a devastating attack on Israel, say) would be utterly crazy. But again, you are the only person here who has mentioned such a thing.
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Re: Free Navalny!

#27 Post by orathaic » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:41 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:22 pm
For the record, I happen to think that any Western military intervention into Iran without a clear and obvious reason (Iran invading its neighbours or launching a devastating attack on Israel, say) would be utterly crazy. But again, you are the only person here who has mentioned such a thing.
You are the one who brought up US (and Biden's policy) and European intervention...

Iran has the ability to kick out foreign influencers as they demonstrated in '79, when they kicked Western puppets out. Unfortunately since then Western imperialism and aggression (currently in the form of crippling economic sanction) have forced the state to rely on the likes of Putin for support.

Russia being one of the only nation states both willing and able to defy the US and her allies.

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Re: Free Navalny!

#28 Post by Octavious » Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:16 pm

I withdraw my previous comment about your supposed intelligence. It clearly fails to stand up to scrutiny.

No one mentioned taking action against Iran. The subject, raised by Gourmet, was the removal of Putin. The fact that Putin and Russia was mentioned several times in the following half dozen posts should have provided something of a clue to this even if you'd failed to spot it in Gourmet's original post.

My initial response was to ask Gourmet who he believed was capable of removing Putin. Of the five UN security council members one of them is Putin, one of them (China) has shown zero interest in the governance of any nation it doesn't consider to be its back yard, and the other 3 are the West. My analysis is that there is zero chance of Putin removing himself, an infinitesimal chance of China attempting it, and a tiny chance of Europe or the USA attempting it. But, as the US and Europe have been historically more likely to be involved in such things, it seemed reasonable to ask about them specifically. At no stage was this action suggested to be of a military nature. Again, this was purely your imagination.

The only alternative path to Putin's removal would be a home grown Russian initiative, but Putin's iron grasp of the remnants of Russian democracy remains unshakeable, and his personal security seems to be first rate. The only realistic pathway to a Putin free Russia, to my eyes anyway, appears to be Putin's age and health.

But out of this you managed to invent some deranged narrative about me calling for a Western led invasion of Iran. You didn't just get the wrong end of the stick, the stick you grasped at was in the wrong bloody forest.
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Re: Free Navalny!

#29 Post by orathaic » Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:07 pm

How do you want Mahone removing Putin's influence from Iran is not, in fact, Imperialism?

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Re: Free Navalny!

#30 Post by Octavious » Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:44 pm

Say again?
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Re: Free Navalny!

#31 Post by orathaic » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:18 pm

At no stage was this action suggested to be of a military nature. Again, this was purely your imagination.
It doesn't have to mean sending in the military to coerce an outcome.

Sorry, are you not talking about removing Putin's influence in Iran? You seem to be talking about removing Putin from office, is that right?

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Re: Free Navalny!

#32 Post by Octavious » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:04 pm

I was asking a question to clarify to myself what Gourmet had in mind, then had a light hearted exchange with Jamie involving some utterly useless activities that, to a man of a certain age and culture, would have had echoes of Red Dwarf and their 'give quiche a chance' episode. I have no more called for any imperial action regarding Putin or Iran than you have.

Still, I am rather curious now. What exactly do you think I suggested and in what sense is it imperialist? And what was it I wrote that convinced you this was the case? I would love to know how your mind works.
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Re: Free Navalny!

#33 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:25 am

GOURMET: "Putin is causing serious issues with his influence in my country. He must be kicked out!"

OCTAVIOUS: "Who do you think is going to do that? Biden is pursuing a non-interventionist policy and Europe is afraid to act without US backing."

ORATHATIC: "Octavious is calling on America to nuke Moscow in the next 24 hours!! What a crazy imperialist!!"
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Re: Free Navalny!

#34 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:29 am

This is the Red Dwarf scene that Oct is referring to, by the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgUktfdDy4

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