H.R. 8932

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Matticus13
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H.R. 8932

#1 Post by Matticus13 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:34 am

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/her-fin ... 02636.html

"H.R. 8932, entitled the Protect Women’s Sports Act, seeks to limit women’s collegiate sports programs to only people assigned female at birth."

Basically, the passage of this bill would not allow trans women to compete on women's teams in college. Critics decry the bill as "transphobic" and yada yada... Supporters of the legislation say it keeps the women's athletics fair.

I will volunteer my opinion, with a full expectation of being put on blast: I'd vote for it if I were a Representative.

I am not against people expressing who they are. If one of my sons decided sometime in the future that they identified as a woman, or non-binary, I would support their decision. However, I would not be alright with them competing for scholarships in women's sports.

Sports are a competition and those born biologically male have/had a physical and hormonal advantage over those biologically female. Unless you are going to let women start using testosterone or other supplements (which could be quite dangerous) to level the playing field, I won't support it. It's simply not fair.

Hoping for a civil discussion, but my expectations are low.
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peterlund
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Re: H.R. 8932

#2 Post by peterlund » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:49 am

Yes fairness in sports is essential. That is why we do not allow doping.

I would go as far as saying that women sports are only for individuals with 2 X cromosomes (alt. the absence of one Y). I have heard that more combos than just XY and XX exist, like XXX and YXX, but then again I am not a biologist ...
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flash2015
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Re: H.R. 8932

#3 Post by flash2015 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:13 pm

Not the highest priority bill at the moment (they should drop everything and get the stimulus passed). I think this is political posturing by Gabbard.

However, I don't think you are going to find much disagreement in the idea that trans-women should not be allowed in competitive women's sports.

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Re: H.R. 8932

#4 Post by orathaic » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:29 pm

I did see a report claiming that even 2 years after HRT trans athletes had an advantage (I can't remember I think they said it was a 16% advantage) , however I also saw several claims that after a 3rd year the advantage disappeared (can't find the reference right now I can only find one claim that trans women gain no advantage: https://theestablishment.co/no-female-t ... index.html)

So that aside. There is a human rights issue at stake here.People have a right to engage with their culture. Personally I don't give a shit about sports and would probably come out against sports based scholarships if I was in charge of education.. . But despite not giving a shit, all people should be given an equal right to engage with their culture, even if it is a messed up bit of culture I don't just 2 flying fucks about.

Excluding trans folks is not OK.

This is equivalent to saying black athletes should not be allowed to play basketball because they have some advantage (maybe it is even a genetic advantage).It is wrong, and basic rights should be protected.
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orathaic
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Re: H.R. 8932

#5 Post by orathaic » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:34 pm

Also further to that, you can be XY (with androgen insensitivity syndrome) and be assigned female at birth. Or indeed there are some conditions which lead to XX folks being assigned male.

Found another article which places this firmly into the horrible policies of the right category: https://www.athleteally.org/tom-blunt-t ... en-sports/

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Re: H.R. 8932

#6 Post by peterlund » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:44 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:29 pm
So that aside. There is a human rights issue at stake here.People have a right to engage with their culture. Personally I don't give a shit about sports and would probably come out against sports based scholarships if I was in charge of education.. . But despite not giving a shit, all people should be given an equal right to engage with their culture, even if it is a messed up bit of culture I don't just 2 flying fucks about.

Excluding trans folks is not OK.

This is equivalent to saying black athletes should not be allowed to play basketball because they have some advantage (maybe it is even a genetic advantage).It is wrong, and basic rights should be protected.
As far as I know there is no human-rights declaration anywhere saying that you have the right to compete against women in sports. There is nothing saying that a heavy weight boxer should be allowed to compete in all weight classes of boxing.

Transgender people should always be allowed to compete in the "open" less restricted class (against males) even if they have developed some female features. As long as the homonical treatment is not considered to be an act of doping then of course.
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orathaic
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Re: H.R. 8932

#7 Post by orathaic » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:22 pm

peterlund wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:44 pm
orathaic wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:29 pm
So that aside. There is a human rights issue at stake here.People have a right to engage with their culture. Personally I don't give a shit about sports and would probably come out against sports based scholarships if I was in charge of education.. . But despite not giving a shit, all people should be given an equal right to engage with their culture, even if it is a messed up bit of culture I don't just 2 flying fucks about.

Excluding trans folks is not OK.

This is equivalent to saying black athletes should not be allowed to play basketball because they have some advantage (maybe it is even a genetic advantage).It is wrong, and basic rights should be protected.
As far as I know there is no human-rights declaration anywhere saying that you have the right to compete against women in sports. There is nothing saying that a heavy weight boxer should be allowed to compete in all weight classes of boxing.

Transgender people should always be allowed to compete in the "open" less restricted class (against males) even if they have developed some female features. As long as the homonical treatment is not considered to be an act of doping then of course.
Article 27 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Like a constitution it doesn't specifically address this issue, the details are assumed to be derived from the general statement.

But yes, I entirely approve the comparison with boxing. We can use arbitrary classification systems (like weight classes in boxing) to determine how each group competes fairly. You can have a Testosterone based class, with multiple different ranges, or you could have a height based classification for basketball (ie something specific to the sport in question). Under 5 foot basketball would be amazing...
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Re: H.R. 8932

#8 Post by yavuzovic » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:56 pm

I agree with orathaic. Another classification could be implemented in order to keep everyone equally and fairly competing. I once heard of a woman who was accused of doping because of her naturally high testosterone level. Rather than classification by gender, there could be a classification based on natural advantages.
orathaic wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:22 pm
But yes, I entirely approve the comparison with boxing. We can use arbitrary classification systems (like weight classes in boxing) to determine how each group competes fairly. You can have a Testosterone based class, with multiple different ranges, or you could have a height based classification for basketball (ie something specific to the sport in question). Under 5 foot basketball would be amazing...
That's irrelevant to the thread but I watched my cousin's match (primary school basketball) and it ended 1-0. It was not football, it was basketball and it was surely amazing.
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Re: H.R. 8932

#9 Post by Randomizer » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:35 pm

There were back a few decades ago, the Olympics and world competitions where Soviet bloc countries were accused of giving their female athletes male hormones in order to gain an advantage in sports. So there is some precedents for restrictions.

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Re: H.R. 8932

#10 Post by Matticus13 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:36 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:13 pm
Not the highest priority bill at the moment (they should drop everything and get the stimulus passed). I think this is political posturing by Gabbard.

However, I don't think you are going to find much disagreement in the idea that trans-women should not be allowed in competitive women's sports.
The Biden Administration disagrees. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... tive-order

They are claiming it's discrimination to not allow trans athletes to complete against the gender they identify with.
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orathaic
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Re: H.R. 8932

#11 Post by orathaic » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:57 pm

Matticus13 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:36 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:13 pm
Not the highest priority bill at the moment (they should drop everything and get the stimulus passed). I think this is political posturing by Gabbard.

However, I don't think you are going to find much disagreement in the idea that trans-women should not be allowed in competitive women's sports.
The Biden Administration disagrees. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... tive-order

They are claiming it's discrimination to not allow trans athletes to complete against the gender they identify with.
They would be correct.

Did I write that the research seems to show that for 2 years after starting HRT trans women do retain some advantages... But not after 3 years.

Also excluding people from taking part in cultural activities (like sports in this case) is nearly the definition of discrimination.

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Re: H.R. 8932

#12 Post by flash2015 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:13 pm

Here is the full executive order which is a more general rule against trans discrimination than that article might suggest:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... ientation/

I agree with everything there except for the school sports mention.

Matticus13
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Re: H.R. 8932

#13 Post by Matticus13 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:08 pm

orathaic wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:57 pm
Matticus13 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:36 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:13 pm
Not the highest priority bill at the moment (they should drop everything and get the stimulus passed). I think this is political posturing by Gabbard.

However, I don't think you are going to find much disagreement in the idea that trans-women should not be allowed in competitive women's sports.
The Biden Administration disagrees. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... tive-order

They are claiming it's discrimination to not allow trans athletes to complete against the gender they identify with.
They would be correct.

Did I write that the research seems to show that for 2 years after starting HRT trans women do retain some advantages... But not after 3 years.

Also excluding people from taking part in cultural activities (like sports in this case) is nearly the definition of discrimination.
I agree with the rest of the executive order, but not the sports aspect.

There's nothing in the order that says I have to be transitioning into the gender I identify as. There's no 2-3 year waiting period. This is hurting women that are at a biologically disadvantage. It's not fair to them in the slightest.
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