Political statement on homepage

[bo_sox48]

Indeed. The government clearly states:

Evidence suggests that wearing a face covering does not protect you


And goes on to advise the wearing of such coverings where social distancing is impossible as it may provide some protection for others in these situations.

We're talking about protecting you? I don't care about protecting you. I care about you protecting me, and me protecting you.

[bo_sox48]

Woah woah woah, Octavious. Did you just omit information to try to help support your point? Here's the next paragraph.
However, taking into account the available studies evaluating pre- and asymptomatic transmission, a growing compendium of observational evidence on the use of masks by the general public in several countries, individual values and preferences, as well as the difficulty of physical distancing in many contexts, WHO has updated its guidance to advise that to prevent COVID-19 transmission effectively in areas of community transmission, governments should encourage the general public to wear masks in specific situations and settings as part of a comprehensive approach to suppress SARS-CoV-2 transmission
It seems that the WHO guidelines in fact support wearing masks! You speak eloquently, but your combination of stubbornness and lack of humility is causing you to argue disingenuously.

Have you read the specific situations it refers to? Clearly not, or you wouldn't have run with this line of argument. They are the situations I referred myself to earlier, where social distancing is impossible. They specifically mention living in a slum (there may be parts of America that qualify... I don't know) and public transport, along with various other enclosed locations. Nothing in your smoking gun paragraph contradicts anything I have said before.

Do you think I wear a mask on my couch in my living room lmao

[Octavious]

My impression was that you don a mask when you leave the house. Is that incorrect?

[bo_sox48]

Yes, along with a shirt and pants because those keep other people from being exposed to things that they don't want me to expose them to when I leave my house.

[Octavious]

I wouldn't want to comment on the attractiveness or otherwise of your face, but I'd hazard a guess that you are probably not repulsive... unless you have one of those whispy beards, of course, in which case by all means cover it up. But in terms of covid19 there is no reason to wear a mask in the vast majority of circumstances, and damned little evidence even for those few circumstances that governments have chosen to err on the side of caution and recomend a mask.

[bo_sox48]

The broken record approach doesn't do anything other than annoy me, and I was already annoyed. You were wrong before and you're still wrong. If you're leaving your home, it's probably for a reason. You probably need groceries or to take your car to the shop. Maybe you want to go shopping for something. Maybe you're going back to your essential factory or office, I don't know. But if you're not in the woods alone, you need to be wearing a mask. It's simple, easy, and proven to be impactful, even if not a miracle fix, when everyone comes together and does it.

Your country has a 27% mask-wearing rate according to some guy on Twitter I saw a couple days ago and a fairly stable, low case rate. Maybe things are "back to normal" for you given that your country isn't seeing record highs for new cases every day anymore. Obviously given those numbers masking up is not everything. With effective contact tracing, heavy testing, isolation, distancing precautions for healthy people, shutdowns, a generally healthy population, tight epicenters and largely unaffected rural communities, and a healthcare system that doesn't make people afraid to ask for help you can manage that with or without widespread mask wearing. In the United States, we don't have all of those things. Hell, we don't have half of those things. Additionally, we have some states that are doing really well at keeping their populace safe (mine included) and others that don't really seem to give a shit about whether people live or die, and on top of that we have a federal government that would rather talk conspiracies and act like there's no problem than use their resource pool to help. It's basically a free-for-all, wherein we as individuals decide how much we're risking on a daily basis. By wearing a mask, those who actually care about anyone else can help mitigate their risk, even if it's by 3% or 60%, whatever it turns out to be.

If I'm wearing a mask and the idiot that passes me in the staircase and always opens his mouth to try and small talk doesn't wear one (and he doesn't), I can still get sick all the same. So yeah, if you're a selfish prick and care about nobody else, don't wear a mask I guess.

[Octavious]

You have said words to the effect that it's proven to be impactful on several occasions now, and yet provided no actual proof. The WHO have said clearly that such evidence does not exist. I'm inclined to believe them over you, but if you have any such evidence by all means provide it.

[orathaic]

https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease ... -use-masks

What is it about this document about wearing masks, from the WHO, gives you the impression that wearing a mask is not an important part of preventing the spread of Covid-19?

[bo_sox48]

You have said words to the effect that it's proven to be impactful on several occasions now, and yet provided no actual proof. The WHO have said clearly that such evidence does not exist. I'm inclined to believe them over you, but if you have any such evidence by all means provide it.

The WHO has clearly said that such evidence does exist.

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals ... 1142-9.pdf

The director of the WHO said that people should wear masks while out in public and that governments should be encouraging them to do so.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020060 ... wear-masks

This is kind of what that report I linked you is all about, but you continue to display a stunning inability - or perhaps you just flat out refuse - to comprehend its contents.

Do you enjoy trolling?

[MajorMitchell]

Octavious, I think you failed to understand a key point I was trying to make and I want to return to it later.
You are correct Octavious in your comment about the much reduced risks of catching CV19 in Australia than in the UK & USA.
What I want to emphasise in this post is that in Australia we have our own racist history and present to address and change.
I'm guilty of acting in racist ways and my biggest fight against racism is the fight against my own racism & after 3 decades trying it's still a work in progress.
I'm also guilty of acting in mysoginistic ways and have that battle to fight as well.
So I feel that webdiplomacy is acting as I would want it to, making it clear that at webdiplomacy there's no question about our commitment to wanting to work collectively towards a better future and fighting racism is, we collectively agree, is a core part of getting to that better future.
I don't see condemnation of those protests in dangerous times as being helpful.
If you feel strongly that there are alternative ways to protest on this issue that have a similar impact, and I emphasise similar impact, then by all means, initiate your own better alternative in some form. If you haven't, then .. well I'd prefer not to say something you might regard as unhelpful, so I won't finish that comment.

[Octavious]

Your restraint is appreciated, Major.

I will continue to condemn the protests because they will cost people their lives and condemn others with life changing medical problems. This is something that I consider to be important. And I will condemn webDip for supporting these actions for the same reason.

One final question, Major. I can understand you supporting the intent of the protests, but not the timing. Half a year ago would have been fine. In a year's time would likely be fine. Hell, in a month or two when the virus levels in the UK and the US are at similar levels to those in Australia will probably be fine.

Does it not upset you at all that people are protesting now and causing others to die completely needlessly?

[Octavious]

"At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the
community setting is not yet supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence" - WHO

Honestly, bo, how can you read that and then claim that the WHO clearly say evidence exists with a straight face?

[orathaic]

Your restraint is appreciated, Major.

I will continue to condemn the protests because they will cost people their lives and condemn others with life changing medical problems. This is something that I consider to be important. And I will condemn webDip for supporting these actions for the same reason.

<snip>
Does it not upset you at all that people are protesting now and causing others to die completely needlessly?

When the protestor are doing it specifically to prevent deaths, and when covid-19 is disproportionately affecting PoC, I think the best people to decide whether the increased risk of a covid outbreak contrasted with the ever present threat of police violence is the people most affected by it.

If you can, as has been suggested, do something, like putting political pressure on your local representative to listen to the demands of those protesting, would you?

[Octavious]

I think the best people to decide whether the increased risk of a covid outbreak contrasted with the ever present threat of police violence is the people most affected by it.

So you're a supporter of a stronger version of the Swedish approach to Covid-19, with minimal legal restrictions and an emphasis on allowing individuals to assess their own risk and act accordingly? Well, that's almost as surprising as listening to bo repeat Trumpian propaganda on the WHO.


As I have previously stated I have no idea what the demands of the protesters actually are. Until I do obviously not.

[MajorMitchell]

Octavious, I suggest we agree to disagree on your prediction that it will be ok to protest in the USA and/or the UK when virus levels will.be similar to those in Australia, in that I think it's perhaps optimistic, perhaps fanciful to believe that cv19 transmission rates in the USA will drop to similar levels to those in Australia for significantly longer than your, dare I say, Pollyanna like estimate of a month or two.. how about unlikely at all in the USA until there's a vaccine out for 9 -12 months ?
It's a bit.."just not now" which is an offering that's just not good enough imho.
Sadly the fight for civil rights will continue to cost lives irrespective of a global pandemic.
The fact that citizens who were genuine peaceful political protesters in multiple nations globally felt that seriously about the issues that they did protest at personal risk is a way of raising the stakes, making an even more powerful political statement than "when it'll be safe, and convenient', when it doesn't interrupt Wall Street Stock Exchange or the sports on TV.

[Octavious]

I think it's perhaps optimistic, perhaps fanciful to believe that cv19 transmission rates in the USA will drop to similar levels to those in Australia for significantly longer than your, dare I say, Pollyanna like estimate of a month or two.. how about unlikely at all in the USA until there's a vaccine out for 9 -12 months ?

Why, Major? New York, which was the early US hot-spot, had progressed from near 1000 deaths a day to a few tens. There was no reason to suggest that this trend would not be matched by the rest of the country. Of course the selfish irresponsible actions of the protesters may well help scupper that.

when it doesn't interrupt Wall Street Stock Exchange or the sports on TV.

Sorry, are you seriously comparing protesting during the ravages of a pandemic that's killed well over a hundred thousand Yanks to the inconvenience of disrupting a sporting event? I think you must have banged your head harder on the floor than you were letting on.

[orathaic]

I think the best people to decide whether the increased risk of a covid outbreak contrasted with the ever present threat of police violence is the people most affected by it.

So you're a supporter of a stronger version of the Swedish approach to Covid-19, with minimal legal restrictions and an emphasis on allowing individuals to assess their own risk and act accordingly? Well, that's almost as surprising as listening to bo repeat Trumpian propaganda on the WHO.


As I have previously stated I have no idea what the demands of the protesters actually are. Until I do obviously not.

No, I'm taking the rather radical position that until you find police killing people with your skin colour, just for existing, I don't give a shit about your opinion on protesting.

Cause guess what, preventing the loss of life IS the point of these protests. And your opinion about how to do that is frankly irrelevant.

[New England Fire Squad]

How far is one allowed to take a disagreement with the banner before one violates rule 5? Some sort of an idea of where a line is would be nice, as things are now construed as racist that two years ago most wouldn't even have noticed.

[New England Fire Squad]

How far is one allowed to take a disagreement with the banner before one violates rule 5? Some sort of an idea of where a line is would be nice, as things are now construed as racist that two years ago most wouldn't even have noticed.

*And definitions of what is and isn't racist seem to often devolve into subjective interpretations rather than objective ones.

[Octavious]

I think the best people to decide whether the increased risk of a covid outbreak contrasted with the ever present threat of police violence is the people most affected by it.

So you're a supporter of a stronger version of the Swedish approach to Covid-19, with minimal legal restrictions and an emphasis on allowing individuals to assess their own risk and act accordingly? Well, that's almost as surprising as listening to bo repeat Trumpian propaganda on the WHO.


As I have previously stated I have no idea what the demands of the protesters actually are. Until I do obviously not.

No, I'm taking the rather radical position that until you find police killing people with your skin colour, just for existing, I don't give a shit about your opinion on protesting.

Cause guess what, preventing the loss of life IS the point of these protests. And your opinion about how to do that is frankly irrelevant.

I say again, this year the UK has had somewhere in the region of 50,000 coronavirus deaths and in contrast there have been 2 police killings, both of which were fully justifiable. You will forgive me for not sharing your priorities when faced with such overwhelming statistics.

For a man who believes that my opinion is irrelevant you seem to ask about it rather a lot. I assure you that I will not mind in the slightest if you refrain from doing so in future.