Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

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Calmar
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Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#1 Post by Calmar » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:44 pm

Sure I’m old and sceptical but I thought this pandemic would put an end to the great global warming scam. Surely it’s obvious that a “Green new deal” would create just this level of economic decline and its attendant misery and uncertainty.
Discuss while I duck my head back into the trench!

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#2 Post by Calmar » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:47 pm

Oops! Maybe should have put this under the “Politics” section as this probably belongs there.

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#3 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:56 pm

Calmar wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:44 pm
Sure I’m old and sceptical but I thought this pandemic would put an end to the great global warming scam. Surely it’s obvious that a “Green new deal” would create just this level of economic decline and its attendant misery and uncertainty.
Discuss while I duck my head back into the trench!
You're either an idiot, or a troll, or both.

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#4 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 pm

I assume you believe the Earth is flat, as well.

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#5 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 pm

wHaT aBoUt FlAt EaRtH hOuR?1?!?!?11!/?

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#6 Post by Calmar » Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:35 am

Well that was about what I expected. Some well reasoned arguments there from Jamie T.

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#7 Post by sheylmann » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:47 am

Let's face it. You are not interested in well-reasoned arguments in the first place.
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#8 Post by flash2015 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:54 am

Calmar wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:35 am
Well that was about what I expected. Some well reasoned arguments there from Jamie T.
If you start a thread by trolling, do you really think anyone is going to waste their time writing nuanced well-researched, well-thought out responses to you?
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#9 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:55 am

Hi Calmar,

You are right, the politics section probably would suit this better. I am curious though, what leads you to reject the scientific community at large and all the supporting evidence around climate warming? Or is your problem just with the proposed political solutions to it?

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#10 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:55 am

To clarify my position, with you being the person contesting nearly every living scientific expert, I do view the burden of proving your point on you.
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#11 Post by Fluminator » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 am

Something worth talking about is the hypocrisy in the leaders behind the climate change movement.
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#12 Post by flash2015 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:38 am

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 am
Something worth talking about is the hypocrisy in the leaders behind the climate change movement.
Why? Whether someone is a hypocrite or not doesn't invalidate the science behind climate change. The personalization of these topics is a deliberate distraction from actually discussing the veracity of the science and what (if anything) we should do about it in the short/medium/long term.
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#13 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:21 am

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 am
Something worth talking about is the hypocrisy in the leaders behind the climate change movement.
Go for it...
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#14 Post by Fluminator » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:13 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:38 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 am
Something worth talking about is the hypocrisy in the leaders behind the climate change movement.
Why? Whether someone is a hypocrite or not doesn't invalidate the science behind climate change. The personalization of these topics is a deliberate distraction from actually discussing the veracity of the science and what (if anything) we should do about it in the short/medium/long term.
It matters if the solutions implemented by the greenies in charge don't actually help the environment and instead only destroys the economy or get them more power and tax income into their pockets.

That's definitely the case with the environmental movement in Canada. Maybe its better in other countries.
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#15 Post by Fluminator » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:18 pm

I can understood older people believing climate change is a hoax though.
According to my dad they've been wrongly prophecying the end of the world due to global cooling or warming for many years now.

I try to debate him saying the scientists back then were wrong and now we know better but he doesn't buy it. He also sent me some things to read about climategate but haven't yet. (Where numbers were tampered with)

Climate change is probably happening, and even if it isn't I support things like earth day, but it's almost like boy who cried wolf at this point.

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#16 Post by Octavious » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:05 pm

There are some big problems with the climate change argument. You have (in the UK at least) the problem of day to day experience. The climate is not noticeably warmer to the average person, nor are weather events more extreme. You browse through the data of the older climate stations (there are very few that extend over 100 years, or even close to it) and the hottest summers are to be found as often as not in the late 1800s as early 2000s. It is easy for a reasonable and thoughtful human observer to find no evidence outside of the media that climate change exists.

The media is the public's typical first point of contact with scientific opinion. The trouble is that along with scientific opinion comes a load of fluff in the form of ignorant extremist scaremongering (from scientific illiterate groups such as Extinction Rebellion), enthusiastic amateurs with no scientific training or expertise (such as popular figurehead Greta Thunburg and child protesters), and journalists who love a good story and make a hash of a scientific report in order to make one. People have an instinct for when they're being lied to, and there have been a lot of lies and disinformation about.

There are also a few issues with the science itself. Modelling is a damned tricky business with results that are rarely set in stone. Messages have at times been confused. A clear warning that we must keep warning to under 2 degrees loses a lot of impact when it mysteriously changes to 1.5 degrees, and then becomes 1.5 degrees but over a degree of that has already happened, so really it's less than half. Someone hearing this could be forgiven to looking outside, thinking that the 1 degree we've already had has been fine, and concluding that an extra degree is nothing to worry about. There have also been errors with some scientific papers (always have been, always will be) and the fact that scientists are human and will worry a lot more if their work doesn't support the consensus than if it does.

So yes, there are many good reasons for approaching the global warming debate with a healthy degree of skepticism. But when you've sieved out the guff (and there's a lot of it) you are still left with some solid evidence that the Earth's natural warming has accelerated rapidly in recent decades, and human activity seems a likely source with a clear pathway to making it happen. The severity of the consequences are very much a matter for debate, but being able to exert some control over it seems to me to be a very worthwhile endeavour. Cutting down on fossil fuels makes very good sense solely from the availability of resources and national security points of view. Environmental concerns add urgency to what was already a solid argument.
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#17 Post by orathaic » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:50 pm

Octavious, have you seen the ice minimums in the arctic? How does that compare with hundreds of years of data? Thinner and thinner ice, meaning it is newly formed rather than surviving for up to a decade. We may have an ice-free Arctic summer in the next 20 years, and ice is better at reflecting sunlight than sea water, so we will find the earth absorbing more energy and thus changing more rapidly.

That is just one example of countless terrifying prospects (though since the ice in the Arctic Sea is already floating it will not increase sea levels when it melts, which is the only upside).

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#18 Post by flash2015 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:19 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:50 pm
Octavious, have you seen the ice minimums in the arctic? How does that compare with hundreds of years of data? Thinner and thinner ice, meaning it is newly formed rather than surviving for up to a decade. We may have an ice-free Arctic summer in the next 20 years, and ice is better at reflecting sunlight than sea water, so we will find the earth absorbing more energy and thus changing more rapidly.

That is just one example of countless terrifying prospects (though since the ice in the Arctic Sea is already floating it will not increase sea levels when it melts, which is the only upside).
The problem with the ice free prediction in 20 years is that not much more than a decade ago some people were predicting that by now the arctic would be ice free in summer. We tend to suggest we know this stuff with certainty when instead there are massive error bars on these models.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything and some simplification of the data is unavoidable to get across the potential risk. But you can see what some people will say and what some pundits will exploit - you got it wrong then, why should we believe the models now?
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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#19 Post by orathaic » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:28 am

The ice keeps thinning, my 20 years figure isn't from a model, I pulled it from thin air (and prefs Ed it with 'we may have'). I don't know, I'm not a climate scientist, I am just looking at the trend. Maybe it will be 20 years, maybe it will be 5 years, maybe 50. The point is, recent thickness of ice sheets indicates new ice which only last about a year, and not multi-year growth. This is already true, not a prediction.

Fires in Australia and the Amazon,m and California, water shortages (like the california water table dropping) caused by human actions will only be made worse by any shift in rainfall (either flooding in areas not used to extra rainfall or drought).

Flooding in England has become increasingly problematic... And again even if that is mainly down to humans changing the natural world to suit themselves, if rainfall increases now then there will be no room to fit it in and massive flooding will destroy property and lives (ie those things the 'econony', which everyone is so worried about, depends on).

And I could go on....

But the evidence shows that eventually plants will grow bigger, as more CO2 becomes available, eventually plants will produce more sugars from it and grow bigger (not great for human protein consumption, but hey) eventually a balance will occur, where CO2 starts to come back down. Maybe humans will be back at 100,000 population by then, who knows. The Earth is going to be fine, but think of the economy, we need an economy hour with some forward thinking!

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Re: Promoting Earth Hour? Does anyone believe this Global warming hoax anymore?

#20 Post by flash2015 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:04 pm

Anyone watch the Michael Moore documentary "Planet Of The Humans"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

I agree that biomass discussed in the second half is largely a scam...but much of the rest of the documentary appeared out of date (e.g. the average solar panel now is now than double the efficiency of the ones shown in the documentary) or was just wrong/unsubstantiated. For example, just because the Gigafactory has a connection to the grid doesn't mean that it doesn't get 100% of its energy via clean means - it could be net metering or explicitly buying electricity produced by renewable sources.

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