Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

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ND
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#21 Post by ND » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:21 am

Who cares at least uk is free of the big gov liberal EU. Freedom.
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#22 Post by Octavious » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am

MajorMitchell wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:15 am
Boris doesn't have high appeal with voters in Scotland.
Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#23 Post by orathaic » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:08 am

Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am
MajorMitchell wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:15 am
Boris doesn't have high appeal with voters in Scotland.
Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
~35% of Scots voted for Brexit, only 25% voted for Conservatives in Scotland. So no, just no. Your simplification is 100% the opposite of what you think it is.

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#24 Post by orathaic » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:09 am

ND wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:21 am
Who cares at least uk is free of the big gov liberal EU. Freedom.
"free", you know, except for WTO rules, global capitalism, and a wealthy elite to fuck over the majority.

Good luck with the freedom. So much freedom to die in the streets I'm not even jealous.
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#25 Post by MajorMitchell » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:12 am

Well Octavious our Oracle, as I was opening this thread again.& scrolled down page one to my comment about Boris not having appeal to Scottish voters I thought, perhaps that's not 100% the case and though Boris might appeal to a similar proportion approximately of hardy Scots voters as he does in other regions of the UK, it's just that Scottish Independence gang have far more appeal in Scotland to their hardy Scots voters than anyone else.
Then I cometh unto this second page & read your contribution & thought, yes, it's not as simple & subtle nuances should be considered.
I note that you've been rebuked (again) so if I have to sit in the proverbial naughty corner as you no doubt might be, I have the second of two books I ordered & have arrived (2nd today, I'm almost half through the first) on the Elizabethan diplomat & spymaster Francis Walsingham, so I might have a clue why Dipbro Jamiet99uk is sticking with the administrative path to power. That's what England needs, a career diplomat to serve Boris up a delightful Silesian Surprise post Brexit

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#26 Post by Octavious » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:38 am

orathaic wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:08 am
Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am
MajorMitchell wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:15 am
Boris doesn't have high appeal with voters in Scotland.
Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
~35% of Scots voted for Brexit, only 25% voted for Conservatives in Scotland. So no, just no. Your simplification is 100% the opposite of what you think it is.
I have literally no idea what your point is...

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#27 Post by Octavious » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:55 am

MajorMitchell wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:12 am
Well Octavious our Oracle, as I was opening this thread again.& scrolled down page one to my comment about Boris not having appeal to Scottish voters I thought, perhaps that's not 100% the case and though Boris might appeal to a similar proportion approximately of hardy Scots voters as he does in other regions of the UK, it's just that Scottish Independence gang have far more appeal in Scotland to their hardy Scots voters than anyone else.
Then I cometh unto this second page & read your contribution & thought, yes, it's not as simple & subtle nuances should be considered.
I note that you've been rebuked (again) so if I have to sit in the proverbial naughty corner as you no doubt might be, I have the second of two books I ordered & have arrived (2nd today, I'm almost half through the first) on the Elizabethan diplomat & spymaster Francis Walsingham, so I might have a clue why Dipbro Jamiet99uk is sticking with the administrative path to power. That's what England needs, a career diplomat to serve Boris up a delightful Silesian Surprise post Brexit
The Tories haven't been popular in Scotland since they stupidly used it as a test location for the poll tax failure back before Blair. Since then we have been punished in practically every election, with the Tories sitting back and watching the SNP fight Labour. Between 1997 and 2017 the Tories varied between 0 and 1 Scottish MPs.

In 2017, however, we had the excellent Ruth Davidson leading the party in Scotland, and she briefly took us to the dizzying heights of 28% of the vote and 13 seats until she resigned to spend more time with her little one.

Without her we have suffered a little, and against the tide of Brexit we've suffered a little, but still have 6 seats and 25% of the vote. Aside from 2017s high point that's the best the Tories have done in Scotland for a generation.
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#28 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:17 pm

ND wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:21 am
Who cares at least uk is free of the big gov liberal EU. Freedom.
Well of course you don't care. You don't have to live here. You don't have to watch schools crumble. You don't have to walk past more and more homeless people on your way to work. You don't have to worry if your local hospital is going to stay open. You are a beacon of ignorance and none of this affects you. Please go masturbate over Trump and leave us alone.
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#29 Post by orathaic » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:25 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:38 am
orathaic wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:08 am
Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am


Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
~35% of Scots voted for Brexit, only 25% voted for Conservatives in Scotland. So no, just no. Your simplification is 100% the opposite of what you think it is.
I have literally no idea what your point is...
I would like to take that as honesty, though I don't know why.

Your premises:
1) this vote was all about Brexit,
2) Scots don't like Brexit,
3) the Tory's were the Brexit choice.
Your conclusion: despite these two things, the pro-Brexit Tory party is the second biggest winner in Scotland.

The flaw in your argument is, many people in Scotland supported Brexit, and less voted Tory. So when you look at the data, you can see that DESPITE your third premise 10% (at least) of Pro Brexit Scots refused to vote for the Tory. Ie the did worse in this election than the your first Premise would have suggested they should do.

It is entirely possible that your premises were all wrong. Your second one is demonstrably misleading. I'm not Scottish, I don't know what the feeling there is, Irish news makes it sound like only the SNP are doing anything in Scotland. In which case the election was actually about Scottish independence. And they won ~45% of the vote( and when you add the lib dems ~9% and apparel tly 40% of the Scottish Labour vote, that makes a majority).

But I don't know what the feeling on the ground in Scotland actually is. And unlike you, I don't pretend to know...

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#30 Post by Octavious » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:17 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:25 pm
But I don't know what the feeling on the ground in Scotland actually is. And unlike you, I don't pretend to know...
You do pretend to know the premises of my argument, however, despite the fact you were extremely wide of the mark. As it happens rather a lot of my family are Scottish, and I spend a fair amount of my time there. Scots, like myself, are British. I would say I'm pretty damned familiar with a lot of the feeling in Scotland, as much as I can be familiar with the feeling anywhere in my country.

Lets start with where you went wrong
orathaic wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Your premises:
1) this vote was all about Brexit,
No, very much no. The vote was about a great many things as general elections always are. What I said, and what is undeniably true, is that the Tories fought the election on Brexit. It was their primary theme, and whilst they did talk about other things it was always in the context of Brexit.
orathaic wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:25 pm
Your premises:
3) the Tory's were the Brexit choice.
Again, no. There were four viable options for Brexit supporters in Scotland, namely the Tories, Labour, SNP and the Brexit Party. It has been suggested by research that approximately 1/3 of SNP voters voted for Brexit in the referendum, which is very similar to the percentage of Labour supporters who voted for Brexit. Tories wanting to be the Brexit choice is very much not the same as the Tories being the Brexit choice.

As we've now established that your understanding of my argument was built on wrong assumptions, it follows that the conclusions you drew are inevitably wildly off target.
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#31 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:37 am

Well done Dipbro Jamiet99uk, that's an excellent riposte to young NO/ND. What amuses me is that ND appears to think that calling someone else a Liberal is an insult, which seems to be rather fashionable in conservative circles, like the accusations of being a lefty or a socialist. It's like a convenient "Linus security blanket" (referencing Peanuts cartoons), these uppity blighters use Liberal/socialist/lefty as a response that excuses the need for rational criticisms.
Quite frankly, I'm happy to be regarded, in comparison to innumerable right wing ranters as something of a Liberal/socialist/lefty.
If believing that the nation state should raise taxes to fund free public health and education services makes a chap a Liberal then call me a Liberal on that basis. Particularly if the converse is that "non liberals" or "anti~liberals" believe that a nation state should not raise taxes to fund free public health and education services and instead that modern day robber barons should be allowed to plunder unimpeded and virtually untaxed.
What is the alternative utopian (or grimly distopian) society that the policies ND endorses will deliver ? It's not enough to use glib dismissals of Liberals and dodge the harder questions/problems. What's the alternative (to liberalism's​) social construct, plans, future, etc ???
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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#32 Post by orathaic » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:13 am

Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am
Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
I'll just leave your own words here, shall I?

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#33 Post by orathaic » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:16 am

@Major Mitchel, just to point out, Liberal is considered an insult in many Lefty/Socialist circles aswell. The Hilary Clinton/Tony Blair (centre left?) Liberals, who support war, imperialism, and generally agree with conservatives on far too much.

I know it is an aside, but just thought I'd mention it.

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#34 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:51 am

Thanks Orathaic, it's a problem with using a generic term (Liberal or Socialist) & you kindly mis~spelt my player name, I often mis~spell other players player names, but I appreciate being.given the chance to diminish the severity of any perceived criticism from your good self in noting a minor flaw on your part.
I should & do extend to you, Dipbros Jamiet99uk, Octavious & others Christmas salutations from myself and if those amiable clicking & clacking of knitting kit & almost approving snort sweetly passing from the picturesque probocis of my Lovely Fire Breathing MemSahib Her Serene Imperiousness Indoors I hear in the post prandial quiet might be interpreted as Christmas salutations from Her Serene Imperiousness Indoors to the WebDiplomacy community.

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#35 Post by Octavious » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:06 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:13 am
Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am
Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
I'll just leave your own words here, shall I?
I take it you didn't actually bother to read my last post? The Tories fought the election on Brexit, but that does not mean that the election was all about Brexit. Labour fought the election primarily on the NHS, the Green Party on the climate emergency, the Lib Dems... I've no idea what they were doing, to be honest... But hopefully the point is now clear.

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#36 Post by gimix » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:41 pm

ND wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:21 am
Who cares at least uk is free of the big gov liberal EU. Freedom.
As a EU citizen i would say, at last EU is free of UK.
Free of vetoes, opt-outs, and the hundred whims which blocked any serious attempt at a European policy on any matters for so many years. Maybe now the words European Union will begin to make some real sense :-D
So i'm sorry for the British people, but i'm happy for the remaining 400 or so million europeans

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#37 Post by orathaic » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:37 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:06 pm
orathaic wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:13 am
Octavious wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 am
Firmly in second place, though, with a half dozen seats. Considering it was a election fought on Brexit and Scotland wasn't a fan, that's not a bad effort.
I'll just leave your own words here, shall I?
I take it you didn't actually bother to read my last post? The Tories fought the election on Brexit, but that does not mean that the election was all about Brexit. Labour fought the election primarily on the NHS, the Green Party on the climate emergency, the Lib Dems... I've no idea what they were doing, to be honest... But hopefully the point is now clear.
I read your post. I just seems you are contradicting yourself. That is all.

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#38 Post by Octavious » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:06 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:37 pm
I read your post. I just seems you are contradicting yourself. That is all.
You genuinely don't understand the distinction?

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#39 Post by taylor4 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:09 pm

To clarify: Total votes in the recent UK election include 9,739 for the Monster Raving Loony Party.
In Islington N. the Loony candidate noted:
"I am a single issue politician, and have had a long-standing campaign for the abolition of gravity."
Policies include: "All European trains will be fuelled by gravy."

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Re: Vote for Boris, or someone else.. UK election an early Christmas present

#40 Post by Octavious » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:36 pm

gimix wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:41 pm
ND wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:21 am
Who cares at least uk is free of the big gov liberal EU. Freedom.
As a EU citizen i would say, at last EU is free of UK.
Free of vetoes, opt-outs, and the hundred whims which blocked any serious attempt at a European policy on any matters for so many years. Maybe now the words European Union will begin to make some real sense :-D
So i'm sorry for the British people, but i'm happy for the remaining 400 or so million europeans
I think you're underestimating the veto and whim potential of the Eastern European block. If you're expecting a Union of peace and harmony then I suspect that you will be bitterly disappointed. Still, time will tell. Now that the political fight for Remain has been defeated Britain will be able to move forward and will be just fine.

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