US Government Shutdown

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Foxcastle
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#41 Post by Foxcastle » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:57 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:47 pm
Why is editing disabled in the politics sub-webbit?
Because it's just a silly game, so game forum rules apply.

ND
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#42 Post by ND » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:39 pm

Well @Jamiet, not that I would expect you to know, but no one really know's how many "dreamers" are in the United States. The lowball liberal figure is 800k. It could be much higher than that.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#43 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:45 pm

Well, @ND, not that I would expect you to know, but the official number of "dreamers" is 787,580, actually.
1

Jamiet99uk
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#44 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:46 pm

Source: United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/fil ... 7_qtr2.pdf

CAPT Brad
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#45 Post by CAPT Brad » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:30 pm

As to the 'dreamer' why is the united states responsible for the wrong and illegal actions of the parents who brought them here. Also most are adults and not children. They certainly can take their 'knowledge and skill' back to their own countries and improve them.

As to ogion. Most lawyers don't work at all. They sponge off society and steal the 'awards' that are the result of trials. They should get a max of three percent like real estate salespersons on commission. And your socialist stab at the military. They do the bidding of the government that employs them. Since you opened this can of worms then everyone getting any 'entitlement' payment should have to perform work for the government.

TrPrado
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#46 Post by TrPrado » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:40 pm

Is it really their own country if they have no memory of living there?

Also, as to illegal actions, you’re definitely underestimating how much this crisis stems from the failure of bureaucracy. I have a friend on DACA whose parents are both on visas. They came here legally, but the Canadian government messed up the paperwork for him alone so now he’s an “illegal immigrant.”

Jamiet99uk
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#47 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:58 pm

CAPT Brad wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:30 pm
Most lawyers don't work at all. They sponge off society and steal the 'awards' that are the result of trials.
This shows your ignorance, Brad. For most lawyers, the majority of their work has nothing to do with trials.

Flashy
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#48 Post by Flashy » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:09 pm

I say, if your parents can prove they've paid taxes, haven't been arrested and haven't accepted public assistance for the last five years, you'll be first in line for citizen acceptance. To those "illegally" immigrating, same deal. Keep your nose clean, pay income tax, report your income and you won't be able to collect a dime from your new "adopted" country for the first five years and we'll consider your application. YOUR application, not mom's, dad's, uncle's and aunt's.

The savings on improper benefits alone, will make the transition to a more fiscally responsible government possible and easily see us through this short term shutdown.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#49 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:10 pm

What's more, Brad, the form of your argument is sloppy and silly.

"Most truck drivers don't work at all. They sponge off society and steal the "awards" that are the result of delivering consignments of goods from one place to another."

JamesYanik
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#50 Post by JamesYanik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:12 pm

@CAPT

there's also a WIDE variety of lawyers, many are hired for legal advice, and never need go near a courtroom

Jeff Kuta
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#51 Post by Jeff Kuta » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:10 pm

I’d say most attorneys would do anything to AVOID trial. Risk mitigation is why they exist.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#52 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:25 pm

Well precisely, Jeff.

Although not currently a practising solicitor, I give advice and consultancy on legal matters, and I am a member of the Procurement Lawyers' Association. Apart from me, nearly all of the Association's members are lawyers - but less than a third of them are barristers, so most of them never appear in the courtroom.

Jeff Kuta
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#53 Post by Jeff Kuta » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:57 pm

Yeah, some people watch too much television.

JamesYanik
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#54 Post by JamesYanik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:12 pm

and with the shutdown (back to the OP)

Democrats could be smarter about this though. they could just say "you know we don't support trump, so let the Republicans just vote on it."

don't filibuster

when the Republicans inevitably fail to get a majority, then Democrats can sit back and can lay claim to 2 things:

1. hey, the Republicans are entirely out of order, can everyone else see this?

2. we're TRYING to be bipartisan, we're not even filibustering to force the majority up to 60 votes needed. this isn't OUR fault.


THAT would be a political victory for the democrats, that would appeals MASSIVELY to the moderate political section of the country. as it stands now, to the less politically informed, it just sounds like a bunch of fighting on either side of the aisle.

with midterms rolling in, they need to get votes together fast. frankly the economy isn't doing too bad, and they need to make the advantages of democrats more clear - to working class people especially.

ND
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#55 Post by ND » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:33 pm

Yeah the million + dreamers need to go back to their own countries. We aren't responsible for them.

Jeff Kuta
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#56 Post by Jeff Kuta » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:10 am

It was the right tactical move for Democrats to filibuster now and force the shutdown. It proves that the GOP cannot control its own caucus, that they are unwilling to compromise for the betterment of all Americans and residents of the United States, and that they are incapable of governing properly.

The GOP is stuck back in the old "Hastert Rule" days still despite some false claims they have made to the contrary. If the majority of the majority cannot agree, then bully for them. Compromise and get a bunch of Democrats on board for a simple governing proposition.

Plus, this is procedural payback for passing that horrible $1.4 TRILLION giveaway to the wealthy which was done WITHOUT REGULAR ORDER. The GOP deserves all the ridicule they receive.

ND
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#57 Post by ND » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:40 am

These Democrats are truly sicko-tier people. I mean they shut down the government and cause pain and suffering to children, the military, government service workers, etc to protect a million + dreamers? Wtf?

Seriously sick and disgusting on the part of Schumer to cause this government shutdown.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#58 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:42 am

ND, you are hilarious.

JamesYanik
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Re: US Government Shutdown

#59 Post by JamesYanik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am

Jeff Kuta wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:10 am
It was the right tactical move for Democrats to filibuster now and force the shutdown. It proves that the GOP cannot control its own caucus, that they are unwilling to compromise for the betterment of all Americans and residents of the United States, and that they are incapable of governing properly.
Well, GOP doesn't have 60+ votes in ANY case, so that's not really proof of anything, if you DON'T filibuster and the GOP STILL FAILS! THAT would show even the moderates in the country just how tangled the Republicans are.

but by filibustering, many in the GOP can say "well, we would have had a majority, but since the Dems opposed it, people who want reelection in Republican states are just pandering.

it doesn't appeal to the moderate, it ONLY appeals to their base. Trump won in Michigan and Pennsylvania, in counties that Obama DOMINATED in 2008 & 2012. Dems need to retake some of these key areas, and from a purely pragmatic political perspective (what an alliteration that is!), I don't think this is the optimal course

Jeff Kuta wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:10 am
The GOP is stuck back in the old "Hastert Rule" days still despite some false claims they have made to the contrary. If the majority of the majority cannot agree, then bully for them. Compromise and get a bunch of Democrats on board for a simple governing proposition.
This isn't the Hastert Rule... the Republicans DO have a majority in their own party, but not enough to pass it on their own. I think there's a point of confusion here...
Jeff Kuta wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:10 am
Plus, this is procedural payback for passing that horrible $1.4 TRILLION giveaway to the wealthy which was done WITHOUT REGULAR ORDER. The GOP deserves all the ridicule they receive.
1. um... that 1.4 trillion wasn't a "giveaway" it was a "we're not going to take it from you." they produced the income, the gov't takes a %. we lowered, the amount we would take. please characterize this correctly.

2. 1.4 trillion ONLY to rich? and how about the bonuses on jobs, the new local hiring schemes, Apple now announcing a second base in the USA, ALL of that which has happened?

PS: that is not trickle down economics. Trickle down economics is when you think the economic growth will in turn increase tax yields to a higher value than they were before: that's not going to happen, nobody is claiming that. the problem now is we need to find appropriate spending cuts, or ways to make spending more efficient.

3. As for Regular Order, I always find people to be hypocrites on this option. while you may not be, I'll make a note on my computer, and hold you to this now: Jeff Kuta is anti-nuclear option. checked and done, and you better never go back on it.

however in terms of the pragmatic: it's all legal. you may not like it, but that's simply the truth.

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Re: US Government Shutdown

#60 Post by JamesYanik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:49 am

for people watching the thread but not understanding what a filibuster or nuclear option is:

https://www.vox.com/cards/myths-about-t ... ns-history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster#United_States

those are decent starting places

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