I am a stable genius

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Condescension
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Re: I am a stable genius

#41 Post by Condescension » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:32 am

President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am
when one declares that the characteristics which differentiate groups of human beings, and which therefore are responsible for unequal welfare, are "morally arbitrary," it is difficult for me to see where there can be any other endgame except equal welfare for all.
Where the hell did I say that all characteristics which differentiate human beings are morally arbitrary? wat?

Condescension
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Re: I am a stable genius

#42 Post by Condescension » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:36 am

President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am


It is intrinsic to our nature as animals to seek to propagate our genes. It is the only constant to every human society and the fundamental basis of continuing such a society. Favoring our newborns over newborns different from us, however we understand ourselves to be, is what all humans do, whether they are willing to acknowledge this or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

President Eden
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Re: I am a stable genius

#43 Post by President Eden » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am

Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:32 am
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am
when one declares that the characteristics which differentiate groups of human beings, and which therefore are responsible for unequal welfare, are "morally arbitrary," it is difficult for me to see where there can be any other endgame except equal welfare for all.
Where the hell did I say that all characteristics which differentiate human beings are morally arbitrary? wat?
Chill.

You listed race, gender, and class as morally arbitrary characteristics which contribute to determining a person's welfare (and further claimed that they shouldn't).
Race and gender are two characteristics which contribute a great deal to different life outcomes for different people. They both affect how we're physically constructed. Gender's impact is very clear on this point, since it involves a difference in chromosomes and in biochemical makeup (amounts of testosterone and estrogen in our bodies) which contributes to a host of physical and mental differences. It's no surprise, for example, that the vast majority of human societies ended up placing the duty of being warriors and hunters with men, since they are bigger and stronger as a result of sex-differentiated biochemical development.
Race works similarly. Different groups of humans evolved in different environments across the planet, and with those different environments came different pressures for different traits. These groups developed in isolation from one another for varying degrees of time. The expected outcome would be that different races have different characteristics. For example, people of West African ancestry hold a disproportionately high number of world sprinting records compared to people of European ancestry, while the reverse is true for world swimming records. Per one study from two scientists at Howard University, this is due to a slight difference in the length of the torsos of black and white people: at the same heights, whites have slightly longer torsos and slightly shorter legs than blacks, which is an advantage in swimming (where bigger torsos generate bigger waves which propel swimmers forward faster) but a disadvantage in sprinting or other forms of running (where bigger torsos constitute more dead weight for runners).
Class, on the other hand, doesn't play a role in developing society per se, and I would agree it is arbitrary from that standpoint. Class is derived from success (or a lack of it) in an existing society and thus serves to reinforce whatever natural gaps already existed. Put another way, being a member of a different class doesn't make people different; people being different leads to people being members of different classes.
Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:36 am
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am


It is intrinsic to our nature as animals to seek to propagate our genes. It is the only constant to every human society and the fundamental basis of continuing such a society. Favoring our newborns over newborns different from us, however we understand ourselves to be, is what all humans do, whether they are willing to acknowledge this or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
Why don't you explain in your own words what the issue here is?

I am not arguing, per se, that everything which is natural is right, and everything which is not natural is not right. I do think that our understanding of our societies should be informed by our biological understanding of ourselves, but that is different from saying "natural right; unnatural wrong."

But you were the one who first made a moral claim here: that the natural pattern of favoring one's own offspring and disfavoring others' offspring is unjust. You are fine enough to say that it being a natural pattern doesn't automatically make it just, but arguing that doesn't suddenly make it unjust, either.
My position is that the desire to have and raise children like ourselves is inextricable from the human condition. It is a fact of our existence, and neither morally right nor morally wrong. Societies which recognize this fact, and which structure themselves accordingly, will have greater social cohesion and community trust than those who try to ignore it, and will be better-equipped to protect their own demographic identity than societies which don't. I consider all three of those benefits to be good enough that I think societies should embrace the natural preference of their own offspring over others, rather than trying to fight it.

You clearly disagree with that position, so why do you think it is unjust to prefer one's own offspring to others?

Condescension
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Re: I am a stable genius

#44 Post by Condescension » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:17 am

President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am
You clearly disagree with that position, so why do you think it is unjust to prefer one's own offspring to others?
When did I say that it's unjust for parents to prefer their children over others'?

Condescension
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Re: I am a stable genius

#45 Post by Condescension » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:22 am

President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am
For example, people of West African ancestry hold a disproportionately high number of world sprinting records compared to people of European ancestry, while the reverse is true for world swimming records. Per one study from two scientists at Howard University, this is due to a slight difference in the length of the torsos of black and white people: at the same heights, whites have slightly longer torsos and slightly shorter legs than blacks, which is an advantage in swimming (where bigger torsos generate bigger waves which propel swimmers forward faster) but a disadvantage in sprinting or other forms of running (where bigger torsos constitute more dead weight for runners).
Yes, I'm sure these minor physiological differences are why black households make $28,300 less per year on average.
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am
Class is derived from success (or a lack of it) in an existing society and thus serves to reinforce whatever natural gaps already existed. Put another way, being a member of a different class doesn't make people different; people being different lads to people being members of different classes.
Your class is determined almost entirely by your parents' class. The single greatest predictor of a person's income is their parents' income. I'm sure you'll have the bog standard social Darwinist answer to this as well. People made similar arguments to justify aristocracy and rule by birth.

Mind if I post all this on Shit Liberals Say?

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Re: I am a stable genius

#46 Post by TrPrado » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:42 am

Quite glad to see the politics subforum is living up to its reputation.

Condescension
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Re: I am a stable genius

#47 Post by Condescension » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:43 am

please unfuck the forum

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Re: I am a stable genius

#48 Post by TrPrado » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am

The forum isn’t particularly the problem here.

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Re: I am a stable genius

#49 Post by Smokey Gem » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:18 am

Genius .

To paraphrase Alladin " Immessurable cosmic power in little bitty hands"

Trump a Genie he is...

President Eden
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Re: I am a stable genius

#50 Post by President Eden » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:52 am

Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:17 am
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am
You clearly disagree with that position, so why do you think it is unjust to prefer one's own offspring to others?
When did I say that it's unjust for parents to prefer their children over others'?
Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:10 am
Any system that favors some newborns over others is unjust.
Am I misunderstanding this post?
Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:22 am
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am
For example, people of West African ancestry hold a disproportionately high number of world sprinting records compared to people of European ancestry, while the reverse is true for world swimming records. Per one study from two scientists at Howard University, this is due to a slight difference in the length of the torsos of black and white people: at the same heights, whites have slightly longer torsos and slightly shorter legs than blacks, which is an advantage in swimming (where bigger torsos generate bigger waves which propel swimmers forward faster) but a disadvantage in sprinting or other forms of running (where bigger torsos constitute more dead weight for runners).
Yes, I'm sure these minor physiological differences are why black households make $28,300 less per year on average.
There's more to it than that, obviously. I picked a very clear-cut example to illustrate the principle of evolution and environmental selection applying to humans. I don't know why you aren't responding to the core argument being made and instead are objecting to the specific example chosen.

Let's jump straight to a contentious one that has direct impact on American society: race and IQ.
IQ in American society is positively correlated with income and negatively correlated with criminality.
IQ is known to be partially but not entirely inherited.
For whatever reason, black people in the US have significantly lower measured IQs than those of all other races, even when other non-genetic factors affecting IQ are controlled for (income levels, educational attainment).
The expected outcome of these observations is that black people in the US, among other disadvantages, would have lower incomes and greater rates of criminality.

What is the solution here from a standpoint that race absolutely should not have an effect on life outcomes? Of course you can argue that non-genetic factors which affect black life outcomes should be addressed, but we have reason to believe that this won't be enough to solve the issue. Even once the IQ gap is solely reduced to genetic causes, it will still exist. What then?
We can even put the same problem in a non-racial way if that helps: American society is constructed in a way that rewards the mental traits which are measured by IQ, and the distribution of these traits is both uneven and follows patterns which you described in the first post of this discussion as "morally arbitrary". How do you plan to change American society so that this pattern is corrected?
Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:22 am
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am
Class is derived from success (or a lack of it) in an existing society and thus serves to reinforce whatever natural gaps already existed. Put another way, being a member of a different class doesn't make people different; people being different lads to people being members of different classes.
Your class is determined almost entirely by your parents' class. The single greatest predictor of a person's income is their parents' income. I'm sure you'll have the bog standard social Darwinist answer to this as well. People made similar arguments to justify aristocracy and rule by birth.

Mind if I post all this on Shit Liberals Say?
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Class is not intrinsic to a person's biology. In some societies, there are traits which determine class, which are highly heritable. The obvious example, which you already gave, is rule by birth. In that sense, class may be "heritable" -- you are the eldest son of the king, which means you will inherit the kingdom when he dies -- but there's no "crown prince" gene in your DNA, that status is conferred by the society's rules.

Also, you keep using that word "just" or its variants. Please understand that I am basing my ideas on what I believe to be true and am not making moralistic judgments. I do not believe the current state of American society is the least bit fair or good for the overwhelming majority of its members, of all races. I am not arguing for some kind of "status quo" or attempting to "justify" gaps in life outcomes that exist. I could possibly be accused of not being as concerned that the gaps exist than other posters on this site, but it is not out of a belief that those gaps are good or should be protected; rather it is out of a belief that they are beyond our capacity to change, and that the best course of action is to design systems based on our best understanding of why those gaps exist, in order to minimize them and their detrimental impact on society.

I have no idea what Shit Liberals Say is, and I expect that you're going to post it or not regardless of my answer lol. I don't consider myself a liberal (small-L or American meaning) though.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: I am a stable genius

#51 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:44 am

President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:52 am
Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:17 am
President Eden wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am
You clearly disagree with that position, so why do you think it is unjust to prefer one's own offspring to others?
When did I say that it's unjust for parents to prefer their children over others'?
Condescension wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:10 am
Any system that favors some newborns over others is unjust.
Am I misunderstanding this post?

Yes Eden you are. He's saying that there is an injustice in the system as a whole - not that individual parents are acting unjustly.

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Re: I am a stable genius

#52 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:37 am

Today's news:

Trump forgets words to Star Spangled Banner, mumbles and pauses attempting to sing along to national anthem.

Unpatriotic and sad!

Octavious
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Re: I am a stable genius

#53 Post by Octavious » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:37 am
Today's news:

Trump forgets words to Star Spangled Banner, mumbles and pauses attempting to sing along to national anthem.

Unpatriotic and sad!
You know, it becomes much harder to criticize the bombardment of non-stories and lies on the internet when you enthusiastically take part yourself. There is no evidence whatsoever that Trump forget the words, and since when have you given a damn about national anthems anyway?

It all gets very irritating. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms that can be made about Trump, yet instead crap like this and the ever present nonsense about hair tends to dominate.

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Re: I am a stable genius

#54 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:01 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:44 pm

It all gets very irritating. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms that can be made about Trump, yet instead crap like this and the ever present nonsense about hair tends to dominate.
I have made legitimate criticisms of Trump on many occasions, but Trump supporters like ND just say "those have been debunked" or "that's sad Cultural Marxism, I will pray for you" without actually engaging. What's the use anymore.

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Re: I am a stable genius

#55 Post by Octavious » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:25 pm

If your goal is to convince ND to vote Democrat, then there isn't any and there never was. It's as likely as you voting for UKIP. But there are plenty of moderates who will read your comments and use them to form an opinion.

That's what I tell myself anyway :p.

CroakandDagger
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Re: I am a stable genius

#56 Post by CroakandDagger » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 pm

UKIP deserves your vote more than the Tories or Labour. Lib/Lab/Con don't care about the people of britain, only their cushy jobs in the administration.

Jeff Kuta
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Re: I am a stable genius

#57 Post by Jeff Kuta » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:27 pm

What you do is help out those lowest on the economic scale (don't call it "class" if you don't want to) by PUBLICLY providing for affordable health care and free education relevant to the society you want to perpetuate.

And tax those who benefit the most on a progressive scale.

No race or religious qualifiers necessary.

AGAIN....

AND TAX THOSE WHO BENEFIT THE MOST ON A PROGRESSIVE SCALE.

That's the problem.

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Re: I am a stable genius

#58 Post by TrPrado » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:31 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:37 am
Today's news:

Trump forgets words to Star Spangled Banner, mumbles and pauses attempting to sing along to national anthem.

Unpatriotic and sad!
Unless he’s in a choir, it’s not particularly required. I know most of the words but I’d be lying if I said there weren’t parts where I just hum to the tune.

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Re: I am a stable genius

#59 Post by ND » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:54 pm

Jamie is reaching like he always does.

Jeff Kuta
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Re: I am a stable genius

#60 Post by Jeff Kuta » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:25 pm

Look at my Pony. My pony's amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Ohx2bxut4

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