War, what is it good for?

[Jamiet99uk]

He doesn't

So you believe in a version of God that is not omnipotent?

Interesting.

Nope, I simply don't use that to jump to bizarre conclusions purely for the sake of making God easier to dismiss

I challenge you to come up with a version of God that is consistent with the observable universe and who you would actually want to exist. Treat it like a thought experiment. It isn't that hard to do, as countless millions have done so before you. Then it would be far easier to view your lack of belief with respect. As it stands, frankly all you're doing is not believing in the flying spaghetti monster

I don't think such a thing is possible. The observable universe does not suggest the existence of a God.

The countless millions to which you refer are either (a) members of a cult, (b) not really true believers, but people who claim they believe for an easy life in their culture or society, (c) capable of a higher level of thought than me, (d) wrong.

Countless millions of people used to think the Earth was flat. Do you?

[Jamiet99uk]

To give context to my question, which you side-stepped:

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, and if babies who are not sinful die of leukaemia, then God either plans for them to die of leukaemia, or he wilfully permits it when he could easily stop it. I'd like to know how a benevolent, loving, all-powerful God could consistently will countless innocent babies to die in pain, but you don't want to answer me.

[Octavious]

To give context to my question, which you side-stepped:

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, and if babies who are not sinful die of leukaemia, then God either plans for them to die of leukaemia, or he wilfully permits it when he could easily stop it. I'd like to know how a benevolent, loving, all-powerful God could consistently will countless innocent babies to die in pain, but you don't want to answer me.

It's a really basic question that has been answered time and time again far better than I am able to, so feel free to Google it. But the general gist is that if you create a universe in which bad things can't happen you've created a universe in which no-one has any freedom to live. Everyone has to be good, love has no meaning because there was never any choice. No one would ever aspire to do anything or improve themselves because it is already fine. You wouldn't get the chance to punch a Nazi in the face because the concept of both Nazis and punching wouldn't exist. Such a world would be truly terrifying and the world we have, for all it's faults, is infinitely preferable

[Octavious]

Countless millions of people used to think the Earth was flat. Do you?

Prove it.

The vast majority of people didn't have an opinion or even hold a concept of the Earth as a planet, be it flat or spherical, in the first place. They believed that their bit of the universe was flat if it looked flat, and they were right. They believed that long sea voyages were highly dangerous, and they were right about that too. Their knowledge of astrophysics was equal to their astrophysical needs. These days the model of the universe most people hold in their heads is just as ludicrously wrong as the model of the universe flat earthers hold in their heads, and the knowledge (even if it was correct) is not remotely useful to either group. In many ways the people who lived half a millennium ago were somewhat wiser than us

[Octavious]

I don't think such a thing is possible. The observable universe does not suggest the existence of a God.

Neither does the observable universe suggest that God can't exist. Of course it is possible. I refuse to believe that you have such a pitiful imagination that you are incapable of such a task. This is a feeble excuse to avoid doing it. What are you afraid of?

[CaptainFritz28]

In many ways the people who lived half a millennium ago were somewhat wiser than us

I agree with this more than I care to admit.

[learnedSloth]

I don't see what that has to do with whether babies are sinful.

God thinks that some babies are sinners and should face punishment. This concept disgusts me.

If the prodigal son had begat children before running out of assets, they would have been in no way responsible for being born in another country, but would have had to live through the same hardships and make the same journey to their grandpa.

[CaptainFritz28]

To give context to my question, which you side-stepped:

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, and if babies who are not sinful die of leukaemia, then God either plans for them to die of leukaemia, or he wilfully permits it when he could easily stop it. I'd like to know how a benevolent, loving, all-powerful God could consistently will countless innocent babies to die in pain, but you don't want to answer me.

It is unjust for such a thing to happen, just as it is unjust for a middle-aged man to be murdered. There really isn't a difference between the two, other than the age of the victim.

The thing is, the injustice is not the fault of God, in either case. It is a fault of the sin of us humans. Yes, there are people who will suffer because of other people's actions. God knew this would be the case. He also knew that if He chose to not give us the option to sin, bringing about the aforementioned injustices, then we would also not be able to do good, to love, or to even conceive of what love is. It would be far worse to be forced to do good and not understand what doing good means that it would be to be able to do evil and yet have the ability to love and do good. You may say it is cruel, but it is the far more loving thing to do.

Also to be noted, as I mentioned earlier, justice for what is done on Earth will be had after all is ended. Every evil action will be accounted for. All will be punished or rewarded as it should be. In the event of a baby dying of leukemia, I believe that they will be given eternal life, and held righteous in the eyes of God.

Basically, a baby dying of leukemia is no different than someone being murdered. Both are a result of other people's actions, and both are unjust. Both are a result of humanity's sin, which exists because of our rebellion against God. This is a result of our having free will, and yet it is a far better option than the alternative of not having free will, not knowing good, and not knowing love.

[Jamiet99uk]

So, if a man beats his wife every Monday, but is kind and loving to her for the rest of the week, you think that's ok, right? Because the occasional beating helps her appreciate the kindness and love she receives the rest of the time.

Right?

[Octavious]

So, if a man beats his wife every Monday, but is kind and loving to her for the rest of the week, you think that's ok, right? Because the occasional beating helps her appreciate the kindness and love she receives the rest of the time.

Right?

If you have no interest in taking the conversation seriously, why participate?

[Jamiet99uk]

I am taking it seriously.

Captain Fritz has explained that God creates pain and suffering so that humanity can experience goodness and love. So pain and suffering, abuse and the death of innocents, are part of God's plan.

Do you disagree, Oct?

[Jamiet99uk]

God is the husband who beats his wife.

Humanity is the wife.

It's very clear.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Octavious:
@CaptFritz:

Do you both hold the view that Evil must occur, on a regular basis, or else good cannot occur, as per God's plan?

This is what I understand your position to be, but I would like confirmation.

[Jamiet99uk]

Can I also ask (and I apologise for going on and on)....

If Adam and Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit.

If God's original command to Adam and Eve had been obeyed.

What would have happened?

You talk as if original sin was inevitable. But if it was, WHY WERE ADAM AND EVE GIVEN THE CHOICE???

[Octavious]

Can I also ask (and I apologise for going on and on)....

If Adam and Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit.

If God's original command to Adam and Eve had been obeyed.

What would have happened?

You talk as if original sin was inevitable. But if it was, WHY WERE ADAM AND EVE GIVEN THE CHOICE???

What would have happened is what did indeed happen for countless thousands of years. Humanity would have continued to exist as ape like creatures until some disaster eventually wiped us out

Adam and Eve were given the choice as having the freedom to choose is what it's all about. You are having the same problem with God as you have with the origins of the universe, in that the English language is I'll equipped to discuss it. You get thoroughly overexcited by words like omnipotent, which don't really make any sense from a human perspective. This is why questions like "can an omnipotent God create a weight so heavy he can't lift it?" can create so many headaches for people. It's similar to talking about the beginning of time. Under any analysis the concept breaks down because our language is unable to properly describe what it is.

Out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a universe where there was no suffering and no evil, if it meant that nothing you ever did would have any consequence and love and joy were mere shadows of what now exists?

[CaptainFritz28]

@Octavious:
@CaptFritz:

Do you both hold the view that Evil must occur, on a regular basis, or else good cannot occur, as per God's plan?

This is what I understand your position to be, but I would like confirmation.

No. I hold the view that for the very existence of good to be possible, evil must also exist. If there were no evil, there would be no good. If there were no hate, there would be no love. These would simply be concepts that we can not conceive of.

Think of it this way.
Scenario A: A husband has the option to beat his wife or to not. To not beat her would be good and loving, and vice versa.
Scenario B: A husband does not have free will, and thus cannot choose to beat his wife. He cannot love nor can he do good, because these concepts do not exist.

[CaptainFritz28]

Can I also ask (and I apologise for going on and on)....

If Adam and Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit.

If God's original command to Adam and Eve had been obeyed.

What would have happened?

You talk as if original sin was inevitable. But if it was, WHY WERE ADAM AND EVE GIVEN THE CHOICE???

It was not inevitable. It was their choice, just as you choose whether to steal, cheat, lie, etc. or not everyday. God knew what they would do, but it was still their choice. Again, God is outside of time, so He views things from a past, present, and future standpoint all at once.

Saying that their sin was inevitable just because God knew what would happen would be like saying that the genocide of the Jews by the Nazis was inevitable because you know what they did. If you went back in time, to when the actions had not yet taken place, their actions would still be their choice, even though you know what the outcome will be.

[Jamiet99uk]

Out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a universe where there was no suffering and no evil, if it meant that nothing you ever did would have any consequence and love and joy were mere shadows of what now exists?

Yes.

[Octavious]

Out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a universe where there was no suffering and no evil, if it meant that nothing you ever did would have any consequence and love and joy were mere shadows of what now exists?

Yes.

Ah, then we have identified the chief reason for our disagreement. What you find preferable I find abhorrent and repulsive to the extent that I would willingly die to prevent it. This has been quite enlightening, but does suggest a zero chance of us ever coming close to agreement

[learnedSloth]

Out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a universe where there was no suffering and no evil, if it meant that nothing you ever did would have any consequence and love and joy were mere shadows of what now exists?

Yes.

It wouldn't be the same. It wouldn't provide God opportunity to show love in the same way that a creation where choices have consequences does.