War, what is it good for?

[CaptainFritz28]

Who released that statement, out of curiosity?

And yeah, I'm glad people are finally starting to catch on to the war crimes committed by Houthi-controlled Yemen against international shipping. At least 23 attacks have taken place, most recently including a boarding attempt that was driven away by armed guards aboard the ship (The MV Maersk Hangzhou). The distress call put out by the Hangzhou reached the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower and USS Gravely, operating in the area, which sent a few helicopters to investigate, ultimately destroying three of the four attacking boats after being shot at by the Houthis on board.

The attacks are being carried out under the guise of anti-Israeli sentiment, but to my knowledge not one of those ships was actually heading to or from Israel.

[Octavious]

The British Ministry of Defence, supposedly in a joint statement with 11 other nations including the US, Japan, Germany, Italy, Canada... The usual group

[learnedSloth]

So you agree that God uses disease to punish babies for Adam eating an apple, something which the babies are clearly not responsible for.

Seems pretty awful to me.

We may not be responsible for it, but that doesn't make us perfect.

For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (2 Samuel 14:14)

[Jamiet99uk]

So you agree that God uses disease to punish babies for Adam eating an apple, something which the babies are clearly not responsible for.

Seems pretty awful to me.

We may not be responsible for it, but that doesn't make us perfect.

For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (2 Samuel 14:14)

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

[Octavious]

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

It's really quite remarkable that one of your chief reasons for not being religious is one of my chief reasons for not being left wing

[learnedSloth]

So you agree that God uses disease to punish babies for Adam eating an apple, something which the babies are clearly not responsible for.

Seems pretty awful to me.

We may not be responsible for it, but that doesn't make us perfect.

For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (2 Samuel 14:14)

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

But perfection and reconciliation with God is the aim.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

So you agree that God uses disease to punish babies for Adam eating an apple, something which the babies are clearly not responsible for.

Seems pretty awful to me.

We may not be responsible for it, but that doesn't make us perfect.

For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (2 Samuel 14:14)

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

Unless they're Israeli :) Then they're the aggressor no matter what since 1948.

[Jamiet99uk]

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

It's really quite remarkable that one of your chief reasons for not being religious is one of my chief reasons for not being left wing

My chief reason for not being religious is because I don't believe in a magic man in the sky.

My comments about the concept of original sin are simply an observation that if God was real, I would consider his behaviour unethical.

[Jamiet99uk]

We may not be responsible for it, but that doesn't make us perfect.

For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (2 Samuel 14:14)

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

But perfection and reconciliation with God is the aim.

The aim for a toddler dying of leukemia and their anguished family?

No, I think they would rather not suffer and die. Fuck God.

[Jamiet99uk]

We may not be responsible for it, but that doesn't make us perfect.

For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. (2 Samuel 14:14)

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

Unless they're Israeli :) Then they're the aggressor no matter what since 1948.

I mean Israel is fundamentally the aggressor in Palestine, yes, its true. The events of the Nakba are a matter of public record, as is their record as a brutal occupying force since then. The Israel Government is pretty evil. I think that's plain to see.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

Unless they're Israeli :) Then they're the aggressor no matter what since 1948.

I mean Israel is fundamentally the aggressor in Palestine, yes, its true. The events of the Nakba are a matter of public record, as is their record as a brutal occupying force since then. The Israel Government is pretty evil. I think that's plain to see.

Sorry haha I'm giving you a hard time for no reason. But you do seem to be applying some magical thinking to the State that you don't accept for "man" or "the fallen" (which, of course, I agree with you on).

I'd suggest that a government isn't some reified entity that exists in perpetuity to represent, forever, every sin committed in its name. If no one who was an adult during the Nakba is alive today then I'm not sure by what spooky power their evil transmits to the 2023 Israelis who form government now, and whose evil is all their own :)

[Jamiet99uk]

Unless they're Israeli :) Then they're the aggressor no matter what since 1948.

I mean Israel is fundamentally the aggressor in Palestine, yes, its true. The events of the Nakba are a matter of public record, as is their record as a brutal occupying force since then. The Israel Government is pretty evil. I think that's plain to see.

Sorry haha I'm giving you a hard time for no reason. But you do seem to be applying some magical thinking to the State that you don't accept for "man" or "the fallen" (which, of course, I agree with you on).

I'd suggest that a government isn't some reified entity that exists in perpetuity to represent, forever, every sin committed in its name. If no one who was an adult during the Nakba is alive today then I'm not sure by what spooky power their evil transmits to the 2023 Israelis who form government now, and whose evil is all their own :)

Well, for one thing, there's an unbroken continuity from 1948 to the present. The Likud party, currently the most powerful party (and the party of President Netanyahu), was founded by Ariel Sharon, a war criminal who personally took part in the massacres of Palestinian civilians in 1948, and Menachem Begin, an extreme-right fascist terrorist.

[CaptainFritz28]

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

Unless they're Israeli :) Then they're the aggressor no matter what since 1948.

I mean Israel is fundamentally the aggressor in Palestine, yes, its true. The events of the Nakba are a matter of public record, as is their record as a brutal occupying force since then. The Israel Government is pretty evil. I think that's plain to see.

I'm sure those that died on October the 7th of last year would agree with you.

Look, I'm not saying that Israel hasn't been an aggressor, nor that everything they do is right (rather the opposite). But you've got to be pretty foolish to believe that this war was begun by Israel directly.

[learnedSloth]

I didn't say anything about perfection. I just think that punishing one person for the sins of another is fundamentally unjust.

But perfection and reconciliation with God is the aim.

The aim for a toddler dying of leukemia and their anguished family?

No, I think they would rather not suffer and die. Fuck God.

It's analogous to the story of the prodigal son. He could have been mad at his father for granting him his request so that he wasted it and suffered, but he came to himself and returned home. Here's the relevant section of Luke 15 for recap:

11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

[Jamiet99uk]

I don't see what that has to do with whether babies are sinful.

God thinks that some babies are sinners and should face punishment. This concept disgusts me.

[Octavious]

I don't see what that has to do with whether babies are sinful.

God thinks that some babies are sinners and should face punishment. This concept disgusts me.

For someone who doesn't believe you have a very firm idea in your mind of what God is. I suspect that you create a personal God that you find abhorrent because doing so makes it far easier to not believe in Him.

It is a trivial matter to dismiss a caricature god of your own creation that goes about punishing babies and giving people malaria for shits and giggles. Literally no one believes in that god of yours

[Jamiet99uk]

I don't see what that has to do with whether babies are sinful.

God thinks that some babies are sinners and should face punishment. This concept disgusts me.

For someone who doesn't believe you have a very firm idea in your mind of what God is. I suspect that you create a personal God that you find abhorrent because doing so makes it far easier to not believe in Him.

It is a trivial matter to dismiss a caricature god of your own creation that goes about punishing babies and giving people malaria for shits and giggles. Literally no one believes in that god of yours

Then why does your God do those things?

[Octavious]

He doesn't

[Jamiet99uk]

He doesn't

So you believe in a version of God that is not omnipotent?

Interesting.

[Octavious]

He doesn't

So you believe in a version of God that is not omnipotent?

Interesting.

Nope, I simply don't use that to jump to bizarre conclusions purely for the sake of making God easier to dismiss

I challenge you to come up with a version of God that is consistent with the observable universe and who you would actually want to exist. Treat it like a thought experiment. It isn't that hard to do, as countless millions have done so before you. Then it would be far easier to view your lack of belief with respect. As it stands, frankly all you're doing is not believing in the flying spaghetti monster