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@flash, you put that very well. Though Oct I recall explained recently that it was good Trump was using all legal means to oppose the election result (perhaps because that means it can not be questioned if everything has been done to audit, legally challenge and confirm that Biden's election is legit). How and ever, I believe there will be a continued (white supremacist) movement who believe that Biden's election was invalid, and thus justify any anti-government actions they take over the next 4 years.

Meanwhile Trump is pardoning all his accomplices, and executing as many federal convicts as possible- which I'm sure Oct will be happy about, after all,it is all perfectly legal*.

*NB legal =/= moral

That something fails, doesn't mean it wasn't attempted. Besides, I don't think anyone here believes Trump will succeed in overturning the election. Honestly, if the only thing you've got is an assertion that Biden will be president on January 20th, then you never understood what the discussion was about.

@Oct, of course.

Even the NY Post, Murdoch's mouthpiece in NYC, which probably has one of the most pro-Republican slants of any newspaper in the USA came out and called what Trump is trying to do an "undemocratic coup" and brands calls for martial law tantamount to treason:

https://nypost.com/2020/12/27/give-it-u ... e-nations/

Last line:

"If you insist on spending your final days in office threatening to burn it all down, that will be how you are remembered. Not as a revolutionary, but as the anarchist holding the match."

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:35 pm

In his world there are only two options - "Trump institutes a coup" or "no cause for concern". Following this logic, if Trump isn't successful with his coup then there was no cause for concern. QED.

Good God, I'd actually forgotten quite how dense you are

Still, I'm glad you've finally reached the conclusion that a coup isn't going to happen. If you can eventually grasp that it was never going to happen you might actually get close enough to reality to be worth listening to.

Trump's actions are far from ideal, and no doubt have done a bit of harm to the integrity of his office. Much like Clinton did when he abused his power to pressure that daft girl into sex, or when he used the Presidential pardon to get his relative off. As Presidents go, Trump wasn't great, and Republican domestic policies tend to be pretty grim. That's why I support the Democrats when it comes to US elections.

But one of the great things about America is that its institutions and system of checks and balances are pretty robust. They can take it. Not indefinitely, of course, but they can easily weather a single President. Trump has tested them, as he is perfectly entitled to do, and they have been found up to the task. There was never any doubt, but it's good to see it happen every now and then just to show the less secure members of society. I hope that you will enter this new year a little less anxious about life

Octavious wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:04 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:35 pm

In his world there are only two options - "Trump institutes a coup" or "no cause for concern". Following this logic, if Trump isn't successful with his coup then there was no cause for concern. QED.

Good God, I'd actually forgotten quite how dense you are

Still, I'm glad you've finally reached the conclusion that a coup isn't going to happen. If you can eventually grasp that it was never going to happen you might actually get close enough to reality to be worth listening to.

Translation - You know you were spouting BS, so you throw some insults and move onto one of your other favourite logical fallacies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Never said that the coup would be successful. Even an attempted coup can cause a lot of harm though.

Trump's actions are far from ideal, and no doubt have done a bit of harm to the integrity of his office. Much like Clinton did when he abused his power to pressure that daft girl into sex, or when he used the Presidential pardon to get his relative off. As Presidents go, Trump wasn't great, and Republican domestic policies tend to be pretty grim. That's why I support the Democrats when it comes to US elections.

Bonus! A trifecta of logical fallacies! You are on a roll today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

You support the democrats?

But one of the great things about America is that its institutions and system of checks and balances are pretty robust. They can take it. Not indefinitely, of course, but they can easily weather a single President. Trump has tested them, as he is perfectly entitled to do, and they have been found up to the task. There was never any doubt, but it's good to see it happen every now and then just to show the less secure members of society. I hope that you will enter this new year a little less anxious about life

Institutional rot doesn't occur overnight. It happens over time. Trump didn't start it (it has been happening at least since the 90s) but he has definitely accelerated it. Even if this passes fine, the danger may be the next president or the president after that (which may be from the left or the right) which finally breaks them...along with more and more instability until we get there.

There is a term for someone that is on one side of the debate but pretends to be a supporter of the other side but has "concerns". Yet another one of Octavious's favourite tactics:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... rn%20troll

Perhaps we could create some sort of points system for @Octavious's posts? So I see five categories so far. One point for each one he manages to cover:

- Insults/labelling
- false dichotomy
- straw man
- whataboutism
- concern trolling

Perhaps a sixth category for switching topic? This could be up for discussion.

So his post above at least gets a 4/5 (strawman/whataboutism/concern trolling/insults).

Let me know what you think. Perhaps it could be a drinking game?

Octavious wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:04 pm

Still, I'm glad you've finally reached the conclusion that a coup isn't going to happen. If you can eventually grasp that it was never going to happen you might actually get close enough to reality to be worth listening to.

I don't think anyone ever claimed here that they thought the coup attempt would succeed.

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:39 pm

There is a term for someone that is on one side of the debate but pretends to be a supporter of the other side but has "concerns". Yet another one of Octavious's favourite tactics:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... rn%20troll

Oh, very well done. You've actually managed to find a way of legitimising a crack down on all dissenting voices on your own side. This is really top level totalitarian stuff. If you had a brain you'd be dangerous

Don't worry, though. I'm not on your side and am very much not pretending to be your ally. I support the Democrats (not in any meaningful way, of course, as I'm a foreigner, but in the sense that if I was a Yank I'd typically vote for them unless there was a particularly strong independent) because they are the best of a bad bunch. You won't believe that, of course, because you never believe anything that doesn't align with your narrative. That is why meaningful conversation with you is so utterly pointless. But you are rather amusing nonetheless

I don't actually care who you 'would vote for', it remains a fact that Trump has issued pardons for individuals found guilty of illegal actions to help his election; there may have been a pay for pardon scheme (though evidence is lacking), and it doesn't look like there will be any action to prevent the next proto-fascist from doing even worse... But we'll see whether he attempts to pardon his family and himself (of step down moments before Biden takes office and have Pence pardon him...)

If you're going to invent stories for which there's no evidence you could at least be a bit more creative about it .

But yeah, it's a crap system that's been a crap system since time immemorial and no one has done a damn thing to fix it. American politics in a nutshell, some might say. Maybe Trump's less subtle than usual exploitation of the rules will finally be enough incentive to inspire change... On the other hand, looking at Biden's family and how useful such insane rules could be for them... maybe not.

@Oct, which bit do you think is made up?

The bit you said you have no evidence for is the bit I assume you have no evidence for.

More of the progress in undermining Is democracy which Oct thinks is fine actually:
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/penns ... 10105.html

And the violent mob justice which Trump incites: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... -protests/

Having seen the body count from Trump supporters over the last 4 years, I don't want to wait to see if the law or mob rule wins out.

We've just finished the more polite fake lawsuits to over turn the election where almost all of them were hearsay allegations or just obviously fake information that shouldn't have even made it to court.

The USA is a failed state.

An armed mob, called to Washington by Donald Trump, have stormed into the US Capitol. Shots have been fired. Police are using tear gas inside the Capitol Building to try to supress Trump's militia. Armed Trump supporters are reported to be assaulting the State Parliament in Kansas and other states.

I repeat. The USA is a failed state.

Just to be very clear - I am not trolling. It's the afternoon of 6th January and the things I've mentioned in my last post are actually happening, live.

I hope I am not watching the beginning of the second American Civil War.

I wouldn’t be quite as cynical. This is happening because America rejected Trump. (Sure, by a narrow margin etc. etc. but I’m trying to be an optimist)This is the breakage associated with that. If anything it’s a step forward even if it’s ugly.

If anything is a failure it’s the Capitol security measures. Like, it’s not like this was a surprise - not sure why they were not prepared.

Very sad day. Many Republicans in Congress, and even Pence finally were doing the right thing and then this bullshit... Fucking pathetic bunch of crybabies. Turns out they're only interested in "law and order" when things are going thier way.